Help me fix this Corvette..Need recommendations for products

**J S Machine** · 10-22-2012, 11:18 AM

I'd like some help from you guys on some products for my car. MY car was in a terrible situation where it was hit three different times by two different detail guys and we are now left with what you will see in the following pics. There has been a thread about this over in the Ask The Expert forum for about a month, and this thread will be a condensed version of the situation. If you are interested in checking out that thread, here it is: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...orrendous.html

If you would rather get the condensed version here, Keep reading.

My car was involved in a situation where powder coat paint leaked from a building exhaust fan, landed on my car, and the sun baked it on. The building is a painting facility and has lots of loose powder on thie inside from the operation. Some of it managed to get out, and the wind carried it across a parking lot where my car was.

To get it off, the guy detailing it used a clay bar. It was stuck pretty good, so after dragging the clay bar all over the entire car, the clear looked like someone had taken scotchbrite to it. It was very bad. I'm not sure if he used any type of lubricant or remover to lubricate and facilitate the removal of the stuck on powder. This first attempt was apparently hidden with the fillers of polish or glaze, because after it rained on the car a few times I started to see the scratches from the claying.

The job was then redone a second time by this same guy. to fix the claying marks. The detailer came back and supposedly used a light compound to get the scratches out, then a swirl remover, with a rotary buffer. At first, it looked like the guy did a decent job, but it still didn't look as good as it did before this all happened. I could still slightly see some of the clay bar scratches. Also, I thought I might have seen a slight hologram, but nothing bad. He then used a wax..so anything that the buffer did was probably hidden pretty well.

First of all, I don't know what he used as products. Second, He did the whole entire job in about two hours..washing, drying, cutting, removing swirls, and waxing. he simply went around the whole car repeatedly, not doing single panels at a time.

Now, fast forward to a week after this second "detail". I decided to wash the car with dishwashing liquid in an effort to possibly cut off this wax the detailer put on. I knew this would expose the problems.

This is what I found.

After this, There was a concern for clear thickness so the paint was checked by Bryan Burnworth of Peachstate Detail, using a tester for fiberglass and composite body panels. He determined that there was plenty of paint there, and it was good to go for polishing out the defects.

Then on to the third detail. Another guy did it seperate from the guy that did the forst two. The car was wet sanded (very lightly) and an attempt was made to get the crap out from above. Some came out, some didn't. He said he sanded it with 2500, but as you can see in the pictures that will follow, he did not press hard enough to even cut through the orange peel. He basically just knocked off the high spots, and left the lower areas. This is exactly what it looks like, but not nearly as far as this example has been sanded. The high spots have barely been touched, and the gloss in the lower areas is pretty prevalent.

Most of the car still has holograms in it from the last attempt, so that tells me that he didn't too much damage on this third attempt. For this reason, I believe the clear is still in good shape to be repaired. The kicker for second guy that did it (which was this third detail) was that he burned through the paint at the bottom of the halo on the driver side. He pretty much had to give me a refund at this point. I hate it happened and I'm sure he does too, but...moving on. That was the third and final attempt by someone else. I am now convinced that nobody around here is capable of doing this to my liking. Here are pictures after the third detail:

It seems that he did get some of the swirls out, but not all of them. He put some of his own in..Notice the small 3" or 4" pad trails. Also prevalent are small scratches (circled in red in some pictures). I guess he got a piece of sand in his sandpaper or something, and dragged it into the paint while wet sanding..who knows...The last one picture is the burned through spot. Look near the bottom of the halo behind the window (Circled in red) note: the red crcles are there, but hard to see.

********************

I'm going to take a minute here to explain the history of the car's paint. The hood was repainted a few years ago by a local guy. It looked pretty decent up until about six months ago, but then it started to fade. These are pictures of what it started to do:

These pictures ought to be pretty telling. It is obviously some sort of clear coat failure. I'm not sure exactly whats going on, but when Bryan and I tested it, it seemed to have alot more clear on it that the rest of the car. Whatever the case, no matter what is done, it always comes back to look like this in a few weeks. I buffed and polished it myself one time, and it looked good for about three weeks or so. Recently, the guy that messed the car up did it as well, and it looked good for about a week. Then, the last guy that did the car did it too, and I'll bet money that it starts to look rough again within a week. I contribute this to polishes and fillers hiding all the defects in the actual paint temporarily.

Bryan did a spot on the hood to investigate. After repeatedly wiping it with IPA, it still looked about the same, even through multiple polishing steps. We both determined that something weird is definitely going on, and it will have to be repainted. I really don't see any use in spending any more time on it..unless you folks have some different ideas.

That being said, The rest of the car's paint history is as follows: Everything on the car was repainted about a year ago, after I hit a deer. The car left the road and went off into a wooded area on the side of the road. Most of the car sustained damage, so it was all painted...except for the hood and the headlight covers. This sucks for one reason..and that is because of the problems I'm having now with the hood..The body shop did call and ask if I wanted them to go ahead and do the whole car, but I refused. They had already charged me more than my deductable for some BS charge they made up, but that is a different story. Anyway, they wanted about another $500 to do the whole car. I should have taken them up on it though.

******************************

The spot Bryan did on the roof was the area of concern, because we knew this could be corrected. Here he is polishing the roof-

And here is the result-

So we know the rest of the car can surely be fixed. Lets just go with the fact that the hood is messed up. we settled on that based on the paint thickness readings, solvent pop present on the surface, and the fact that even after a multistep process, the test area still looked just about the same as the surrounding area. In the latest pictures of the car (After the third detail) the hood looks pretty good. As I said though, I don't expect it to stay that way.

Now on to what to do. I want to try and fix this myself, so I am going to do some research, maybe buy some educational things, etc. I've done some buffing before, but mostly with a rotary and a wool pad. I don't trust myself to go after this with it. I want to purchase a good small orbital buffer, such as one of the kits offered here onthe site. Forum member Laura has offered to help, and I will probably take her up on the offer, because she is near me. She recommended the Wolfgang Duo kit, that has the 7424XP and the wolfgang compounds. I know I will most likely need some extra pads, some good compounds, wax, or paint sealant, etc..I want to be sure I order most of what I need in one shot. I know I will most likely have get more at a later date, but what I'm aiming for specifically is the stuff I need to fix this car. Any other recommendations would be great.

For the record, I realize this car is messed up pretty bad. I'd rather not get into the how it happened and why I let it happen. If you want details, please see the other thread. I want to focus on how to fix it in this thread..

Thanks

Mike Phillips · 10-22-2012, 11:30 AM

If you don't know already, then I would test the paint on the hood to find out if it's single stage or not.

Basecoat/clearcoat paint systems can and will oxidize but the process is a lot slower than single stage paints.

The paint on that hood looks like oxidized single stage and I would say you would be lucky if it is because if it's not that means it's a basecoat/clearcoat finish and there could actually be something wrong with the paint to have it fail and look like it does in such a relatively short amount of time.

How to Test for Single Stage or Clear Coat Paint

To test for a single stage paint, try to find a light colored or white polish if you're working on any kind of pigmented paint. If you're testing white paint then try to use a polish with a color to it and a dark colored cloth, (so you can confirm that you're removing white paint and not just seeing the color of the paint).

Use an ample amount for plenty of lubrication as you're going to want to push firmly if no oxidation is present as was the case with the finish on the classic car.

Confirmed, we're working on a single stage paint... also note the heavier accumulation were my fingers pressed down with the most pressure... this is because you can exert more pressure to the small area of your finger tips than you can with your entire hand, you can use this to work for you or cause problems depending upon what you're trying to do...

**KneeDragr** · 10-22-2012, 11:41 AM

Wow if it gets that bad in 3 weeks its probably a roll on or rattle can job.

**Hoytman** · 10-22-2012, 11:56 AM

Hi John.

Interestingly enough here's some black paint that is astonishingly similar to that hood. Here's the link: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...ailblazer.html

However, I realize your biggest concern is the rest of the car, at least for now. I'm sure some more experienced folks will chime in with some product recommendations for you to try.

**J S Machine** · 10-22-2012, 12:07 PM

When we tested the hood, it seemed to have about two or three times the amount of clear than it should. It is base/clear. Not single stage.

It's almost like the haziness seen in those pictures isn't only on the sureface, but rather all the way through. This last guy did wet sand the hood, so let's see if it made a difference. Before I just go and get that painted, I'm going to focus on the rest of the car. If the hood starts to fade again, I'll have it painted.

**TimmyG** · 10-22-2012, 12:24 PM

First and foremost, I am truly sorry to hear about your car taking this beating. And as a fellow Vette owner/ CF member, I'll do my best to suggest known products that work on these notoriously hard clear coats. For the hood, I agree 110% with Mikes suggestion to check and see what kind of surface you're working with. The remainder of the vehicle SHOULD have a clear coated surface to work with. If you insist on working on your own car, which at this point, I honestly cannot blame you for, you're going to need the right products to get the job done the first time...(well the first time you do it!)

For these hard clear coats, I LOVE the Menzerna IS1500 for a nice cut, followed by SF4000/4500 depending on how nicely the IS1500 finishes down. Buy some Lake Country 5.5" flat pads, I would say get three of each color just to ensure you have plenty of each. For the buffer, I'd go with the Griots because the unit is more powerful and has the best warranty in the detailing world. Obviously, perform a test spot after a full wash/decontamination of the car and continue the process all the way down to your LSP. I really like blackfire wet diamond + blackfire midnight sun for the durability of a sealant with the look of a carnuba wax.

Mike Phillips · 10-22-2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by J S Machine

When we tested the hood, it seemed to have about two or three times the amount of clear than it should. It is base/clear. Not single stage.

Just to note... paint thickness is not an indicator of type of paint, just the thickness of the type of paint. Testing is how you tell if the paint is single stage or bc/cc.

Originally Posted by J S Machine

It's almost like the haziness seen in those pictures isn't only on the surface, but rather all the way through.

That would be an indicator of improper mixing, possibly improper spraying, (or both), or low budget clear or even all of these things.

A quality clear coat re-paint might get swirls but it doesn't normally look like beginning clear coat failure without time and exposure to the sun and the elements and if that hood has a clear coat on it than something's wrong with the paint itself.

How old is the paint on the hood?

Beginning Clearcoat Failure

Here is the best example I've been able to find that shows beginning clear coat failure, it's from a thread I created on MeguiarsOnline called the The Clearcoat Failure Photo Archive

Photos Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline

Since I have not been able to find a similar car with the beginning of clear coat failure to photograph for the AG forum, and because this is a very useful picture for helping people diagnose what type of problem they're having with their car's clear coat I've added to the Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive here on AG but have given proper credit to where I obtained the photograph.

Due credit where due credit is due.... which more people would do this...

On AutogeekOnline.com

The Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive

Originally Posted by J S Machine

This last guy did wet sand the hood, so let's see if it made a difference.

After wetsanding, paint is then compounded and polished and looks like the before and after pictures from this thread,

Makita BO6040 Removing Sanding Marks

Before and After

The entire panel was sanded down and then i buffed out an oval shape in the center

Originally Posted by J S Machine

Before I just go and get that painted, I'm going to focus on the rest of the car. If the hood starts to fade again, I'll have it painted.

Any quality polish in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing could do a Test Spot, (which they should and would do anyway if they know what they are doing), and tell you in about a minute or two if the paint can be fixed or if it's what I call in my how to book,

Page 37 - Paint Condition Categories

11: Past the point of no return
Paint in this condition will be a paint job that falls into one of the above categories but it is so far gone that nothing you pour out of a bottle or scoop out of a can from any company will fix it.

How To Do a Test Spot

1959 Chevrolet El Camino - Extreme Makeover - Modeled by Christina

Live Broadcast Video - 1965 Plymouth Valiant - Extreme Makeover

Before

Test Spot

Wetsanding Test Spot
Even if you're going to wetsand or dampsand a vehicle it's just as important to do a Test Spot by sanding a section of paint and then testing to see what it's going to take to remove 100% of your sanding marks.

Test Spot

Hood compounded

After

It's not that hard to figure out if the paint can be fixed or not.

**J S Machine** · 10-22-2012, 12:58 PM

Folks, I realize my original post in this thread is 8 miles long lol, but if you read, all these details are in there.

Regarding the hood (and headlight covers for that matter), here is a little more detail:

About three years ago a woman backed up on my hood with a jeep cherokee in the wallmart parking lot. The front bumper, hood, and headlight covers were repaired and repainted. Base / clear was used, but probably cheap. I'm not sure what brand of paint. A guy did it that somebody else recommended me to, and the only reason I let him do it instead of doing it myself is because he had a booth. He is probably long gone now, even if I were to try and track him down to find out what he did and what kind of paint he used.

Last October, when I hit the deer and ran off the road, the entire car was repainted except for the hood and headlight covers (just my luck, right). The bumper got lucky and was redone. The body shop that fixed the car uses Glasurit paint, so we know it has good paint on everything but the hood and headlight covers.

When I took the car to Bryan Burnworth, he did a test spot on the hood to investigate..and we tried about five different steps of polishing. When he got done, it did not look much different than the surrounding areas, so we figured that something weird is definitely going on with the clear. Whatever the problem is, it seems to be going all the way through the clear and not on the surface. No color paint came off on his pads.

This last guy that did the last detail wet snaded the hood (along with the rest of the car). The hood looks better than it ever has now after each time an attempt has been made to pull it back out. It does have a few small swirls and holograms, as well as wet sanding marks now. we will see how it holds up.

**J S Machine** · 10-22-2012, 01:01 PM

Also to note, you have to realize to I drive this car almost daily, and the conditions couldnt be worse for the paint. Most days it is parked in a parking lot at work from 5am to 3 - 4pm in the afternoon, and the sun is bearing down. I'm not fortunate to have a garage at home either, but I do have a bunch of trees that partially provide decent shade.

I know this will be a hassle from here on out. The sun does it no good.