M21 vs Ultra Fine Polish

**AustrianOak82** · 07-22-2015, 06:15 AM

Can M21 be used as a ultra fine polish? As far as I knew, it had minor abrasives and could be used as a LSP to remove very fine swirls/love marks. I typically use M105 and 205 (as needed) and am looking for something to remove the last traces of the very fine swirls and scratches. Wondering if I could use 205, followed by 21 with a white pad. I havent had much luck removing everything with the 205. Thanks!

**Setec Astronomy** · 07-22-2015, 06:28 AM

IMO you'd be better off trying to troubleshoot your use of 205 rather than spending time trying to get M21 to do that job. Also, I'm not sure that "minor abrasives" is exactly the term that Meg's would use for what's in M21, I think they would call them "cleaners", and tell you that they are "non-abrasive".

I mean if you are doing a machine application, sure, the pad itself will have some "minor" correction capability (depending on the pad), but I think you need to look into why M205 isn't doing it for you. Are you gumming up M105 or using it on too coarse a pad and leaving marring that 205 isn't capable of removing? Is the paint really soft? What pad are you using for each?

**AustrianOak82** · 07-22-2015, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

IMO you'd be better off trying to troubleshoot your use of 205 rather than spending time trying to get M21 to do that job. Also, I'm not sure that "minor abrasives" is exactly the term that Meg's would use for what's in M21, I think they would call them "cleaners", and tell you that they are "non-abrasive".

I mean if you are doing a machine application, sure, the pad itself will have some "minor" correction capability (depending on the pad), but I think you need to look into why M205 isn't doing it for you. Are you gumming up M105 or using it on too coarse a pad and leaving marring that 205 isn't capable of removing? Is the paint really soft? What pad are you using for each?

I would use my car as the most recent example. It has black metallic paint and about a medium CC hardness. It didn't require compound, so I hit it with a pink pad and the 205. There were some very fine scratches/swirls left and pretty much only visible in the beaming sun, so I figured I would hit it with the M21 as the LSP. I used the M21 with the white pad, speed of 4.5 on my GG 6", moderate pressure. I was left with the same result.

I figured either the M21 didn't have enough cut or maybe I needed the pink pad with the M21 or more pressure on the prior step. I guess my question was gauged around how much cut the M21 has but your question also has me thinking.

**Setec Astronomy** · 07-22-2015, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by AustrianOak82

I hit it with a pink pad and the 205. There were some very fine scratches/swirls left and pretty much only visible in the beaming sun

I think you answered your own question. Your initial process wasn't aggressive enough to remove the defects. Either that or the pink pad isn't fine enough to finish with on a black car (I've never used the LC pink). Generally an "ultra fine" polish would be used for jeweling, so even if M21 could perform that function (which I don't think it can), you would need to have a better finish before using it and use a finishing pad. IMO.

You might want to look into a medium polish if you have instances where M105 is too much and M205 isn't enough...but I actually think you should be able to make M205 work...heck, Kevin Brown has used it as a "compound".

I'm sure once everyone wakes up you'll get better answers than mine.

Mike Phillips · 07-22-2015, 07:08 AM

It sounds like you need either a more aggressive pad or a more aggressive product or both.

Technique could be a factor too.... if you want to keep trying the M205 then buzz that GG6 up to the 6 setting and press down about 10 pounds of pressure and start making slow, overlapping passes. Make about 6-8 and then wipe off the residue and inspect the results.

Save the M21 for sealing the paint, not correcting the paint.

**Setec Astronomy** · 07-22-2015, 07:27 AM

I thought this all sounded a little familiar: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...es-swirls.html

Listen to Mike's advice above...while it's always best to start with the least aggressive method, if you need to remove defects (once you have determined they are not too deep to remove) you need to use a combination of chemical, pad, pressure, and machine speed necessary along with the appropriate technique to get the job done.

**AustrianOak82** · 07-22-2015, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek

It sounds like you need either a more aggressive pad or a more aggressive product or both.

Technique could be a factor too.... if you want to keep trying the M205 then buzz that GG6 up to the 6 setting and press down about 10 pounds of pressure and start making slow, overlapping passes. Make about 6-8 and then wipe off the residue and inspect the results.

Save the M21 for sealing the paint, not correcting the paint.

Alright, I'll hit it in the next couple of days and see what happens. The problem I have always had with running the GG at anything more than a 4.5, is that the LC pads are squishy and completely flat in a matter of seconds. I can take a brand new pad and run it at 6 for 1/2 a hood and by the time I am done with a double pass, the pad has no firmness at all. I'll use 6 with a 3" yellow pad for scratch removal but even then, I have about 10 seconds before the pad has no firmness. I picked up some MF cutting pads that I am going to try out soon. I've used the foam pads the past year or so and never liked them.

**AustrianOak82** · 07-22-2015, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

I thought this all sounded a little familiar: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...es-swirls.html

Listen to Mike's advice above...while it's always best to start with the least aggressive method, if you need to remove defects (once you have determined they are not too deep to remove) you need to use a combination of chemical, pad, pressure, and machine speed necessary along with the appropriate technique to get the job done.

Like I said, my question was more about using the M21 to knock out the very fine remaining scratches. I can't find any good pictures (guessing because they are hard to find) but I felt like mine could be removed with a very fine polish. The swirls/scratches on that Dodge I did were much worse than what I am talking about here, so it's a different question.

**Setec Astronomy** · 07-22-2015, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by AustrianOak82

Like I said, my question was more about using the M21 to knock out the very fine remaining scratches. The swirls/scratches on that Dodge I did were much worse than what I am talking about here.

But you're still having the same problem of not being able to correct defects. IMO you are looking at this the wrong way--you are trying to use your "wax" to finish your correction, rather than getting the correction done during the correction step.

As Mike said, you either need to step up the aggressiveness of your process (if the defects are too severe for your pink/M205 combo), or you need to work on your technique to get the pink/M205 to do the job.

**AustrianOak82** · 07-22-2015, 07:51 AM

This is about what I am working with, or as close as I can show. You can see the very minor swirls that are spaced apart about an inch as they go outward. That's what I working against. So I am guessing from what I am hearing that I need to keep with the 205 and that the 21 wouldn't be able to remove these. I wouldn't need a finer polish than the 205 you think? That was part of the reason I went with the 21, to use it mostly as a sealant but also to get rid of stuff like this: