Struggling with water spots on charcoal fleck 03 Audi

[Kurt_s]

Hi Mike,
As a favor I washed our friend's car yesterday and noticed water spots. I pulled her car into the garage to cool. I tried clay, SwirlX by hand, Opt Compound II with an orange pad, WG Finishing with a white pad to get a little shine, and finally used a finishing glaze and wax for temporary protection. Etching seems to be in the paint.

I don't have a strong enough cutting agent or a yellow pad. I was thinking M105 or ultimate compound with an orange pad which I could get locally today. Any other suggestions?

One other question. The round metal portion of my PCXP where the backing plate screws into the DA is getting really hot. I think that the heat is breaking down my pad. I don't remember this happening when I first got the DA in December. Is this normal or do I call AG CS?

Thanks!

[Kurt_s]

Mike,
Went to Ultimate compound and a new orange pad to remove the water spot etching with several passes however I can see an occasional light spot at a specific angle. Darn they are hard to remove.

The Ultimate Compound finished much nicer than I expected. I used a finishing polish with a white pad to bring out the gloss, then the Wolfgang sealant.

I found a couple recent threads about pad breakdown. Apparently, running at 6 requires more frequent turnover of pads and perhaps a cool down period for the DA. I have a really funky looking 4" white pad that I used after heating up the DA running 6 with an orange pad.

[ScottB]

some minerals in water can etch a surface and heavy polishing and even some wet-sanding may be necessary to remove.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Kurt,

Heat is a normal byproduct of the mechanical oscillating action of plus pressure and time when polishing paint.

The problem is "we" because I'm included in this too, push foam pads to their limit and the result is deterioration of the pad in some fashion.

When I detailed the black Porsche in this thread,

Video: Please help me to welcome Brittany, our Show Car Garage Model, to AutogeekOnline!


The Velcro backing on three 4" Hydro-Tech Pads came un-laminated, not because there was anything wrong with the pad but because I was working the heck out of the tool and the pad to remove swirls.

The heat generated and the violent and repeated oscillating action while the tool is turned on and pressure is applied over time pushes everything to it's limit including the backing plates, the tools and the pads.

I commented on this trend probably 7 years ago that instead of using a tool like a rotary buffer people would tend to push the limits on what a DA can do and it's a trend that continues through to today.

In the last year or so we've seen both Meguiar's and Lake Country re-design their backing plates because people are pushing harder on the tool and making the tool do work it was probably never intended to do.

Spindles are breaking, pads are failing, motors are burning up, backing plates are breaking, adhesives are breaking down, it's not a sign of quality issues, its a result of us pushing all these things to their limit.

[Dubbin1]

it was probably never intended to do.

Spindles are breaking, pads are failing, motors are burning up, backing plates are breaking, adhesives are breaking down, it's not a sign of quality issues, its a result of us pushing all these things to their limit.

I would very much say that it is a quality issue. Its a sign that the manufactures are not keeping up with the demands that we require these days.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mike,
As a favor I washed our friend's car yesterday and noticed water spots.

There are two types of water spots, from this article,

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring


Water Spots - Type I, Type II, Type III
Water Spots are more complex than most people assume because there are different types of water spots. Some water spots are merely mineral deposits on the surface left behind after water with minerals has evaporated off the surface. These deposits can often be washed off the paint using a quality car wash soap. Sometimes these deposits can also leave an imprint in the paint in the perimeter of the spot and in these cases the imprint must be removed using a compound or paint cleaner as it's a defect in the paint, not simply a deposit on the paint. Some sources of water, be it rain with air-borne pollution mixed-in, or sprinkler water from a city water supply or well water, can have corrosive enough elements in it that it will actually eat into or etch the paint leaving a depression or crater in the paint where the water dwelled or dried. This is a Type II water spot and it can only be removed by leveling the surrounding paint by hand or machine with some type of abrasive compound or paint cleaner. Type III Water Spots are primarily a stain in the paint which looks like fading where water pooled and then dwelled for some measure of time. This primarily happens to single stage paints which tend to be more porous and thus will absorb water into itself. If Type III Water Spots are limited to only the upper surface of the paint then they can be removed by abrading the paint by hand or machine with a compound or polish.

Before attempting to remove water spots it is important to first diagnose which type of water spot is affecting your car's paint.

Type I Water Spots
Type I Water Spots are primarily a mineral or dirt deposit laying on the surface of paint. Type I Water Spots can be the results of minerals suspended in city water or well water that are left behind after the water evaporates off the finish. This can happen by washing a car but not drying the water off the paint or if a sprinkler goes off next to the car covering the car with water drop that are not dried off the paint. Type I Water Spots can also be dirt or pollution particles left behind after water from rain or inclement weather evaporates of the finish. Type I Water Spots can also be Type II Water Spots in that the water can leave both a deposit on the surface and an etching in the finish.


Type II Water Spots
Type II Water Spots are actual etchings or craters in the paint because something corrosive in a water source has landed on the paint and was not removed before a portion of the paint was eaten or dissolved by the corrosive substance.

Type III Water Spots
Type III Water Spots are spots that look faded or dull and are found primarily found on single stage paints after a water source lands on and then pools on the paint and is usually left to dwell on the surface for some measure of time before it evaporates or is wiped-off the surface.

Type I and Type II Water Spots




Removing Type II water spots is just a matter of abrading the paint to remove enough material to level the surface.

This is key...

Make sure the root cause of the problem has been solved before removing the water spots. It won't do any good to remove water spots if the car will simply be parked next to the sprinkler that goes off ever night to water the lawn.

Sometimes, water spots are deep enough that you'll want to improve them, not completely remove them so you'll leave enough clear on the car to protect the basecoat over the service life of the car.

[Kurt_s]

some minerals in water can etch a surface and heavy polishing and even some wet-sanding may be necessary to remove.

The ultimate compound and an orange CCS pad took out 99+% etching but I could see some very faint latent circles at one angle when I looked at the hood very closely after a ISP wipedown after a finish polishing.

I could not see them at any other angle, and the paint looks totally clear and mirror like when standing next to the car. I couldn't see them outdoors after I got done with the sealant either.

For the future, should I consider a yellow pad before stepping up to water sanding or maybe an HT cyan pad which is supposed to be more aggressive than the CCS orange?

Is there are better wax, sealant or combo when a car is frequently hit with daily sprinklers? Their daughter's bimmer coupe is a mess with water spotting too. Maybe I should charge for my work?

The WG DGPS 3.0 really made the Audi's paint pop in the sunshine.

Thanks!

[Kurt_s]

There are two types of water spots, from this article,

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring


Water Spots - Type I, Type II, Type III
Water Spots are more complex than most people assume because there are different types of water spots. Some water spots are merely mineral deposits on the surface left behind after water with minerals has evaporated off the surface. These deposits can often be washed off the paint using a quality car wash soap. Sometimes these deposits can also leave an imprint in the paint in the perimeter of the spot and in these cases the imprint must be removed using a compound or paint cleaner as it's a defect in the paint, not simply a deposit on the paint. Some sources of water, be it rain with air-borne pollution mixed-in, or sprinkler water from a city water supply or well water, can have corrosive enough elements in it that it will actually eat into or etch the paint leaving a depression or crater in the paint where the water dwelled or dried. This is a Type II water spot and it can only be removed by leveling the surrounding paint by hand or machine with some type of abrasive compound or paint cleaner. Type III Water Spots are primarily a stain in the paint which looks like fading where water pooled and then dwelled for some measure of time. This primarily happens to single stage paints which tend to be more porous and thus will absorb water into itself. If Type III Water Spots are limited to only the upper surface of the paint then they can be removed by abrading the paint by hand or machine with a compound or polish.

Before attempting to remove water spots it is important to first diagnose which type of water spot is affecting your car's paint.

Type I Water Spots
Type I Water Spots are primarily a mineral or dirt deposit laying on the surface of paint. Type I Water Spots can be the results of minerals suspended in city water or well water that are left behind after the water evaporates off the finish. This can happen by washing a car but not drying the water off the paint or if a sprinkler goes off next to the car covering the car with water drop that are not dried off the paint. Type I Water Spots can also be dirt or pollution particles left behind after water from rain or inclement weather evaporates of the finish. Type I Water Spots can also be Type II Water Spots in that the water can leave both a deposit on the surface and an etching in the finish.


Type II Water Spots
Type II Water Spots are actual etchings or craters in the paint because something corrosive in a water source has landed on the paint and was not removed before a portion of the paint was eaten or dissolved by the corrosive substance.

Type III Water Spots
Type III Water Spots are spots that look faded or dull and are found primarily found on single stage paints after a water source lands on and then pools on the paint and is usually left to dwell on the surface for some measure of time before it evaporates or is wiped-off the surface.

Type I and Type II Water Spots




Removing Type II water spots is just a matter of abrading the paint to remove enough material to level the surface.

This is key...

Make sure the root cause of the problem has been solved before removing the water spots. It won't do any good to remove water spots if the car will simply be parked next to the sprinkler that goes off ever night to water the lawn.

Sometimes, water spots are deep enough that you'll want to improve them, not completely remove them so you'll leave enough clear on the car to protect the basecoat over the service life of the car.

I read your water spot info a couple of times before I tried to remove the water spots. This car was out in the AZ desert for years and I brought back the paint without going beyond an organge pad and OPT Compound II. I also follow your rule of being less aggressive first.

I needed the Meg Ultimate Compound for the water spots and a couple more troublesome issues. I have M105 arriving on the 25th but the water spots on my friend's car were driving me crazy since I couldn't remove them with the OPT Compound II. It seems that the M105 and the Ultimate Compound seem to be interchangeable for the most part. The UC finishes much better than I expected and all I needed was a finishing polish to bring out the gloss.

By the way, you'll see a follow-up note above this response as I hadn't yet seen your comments from this morning.

Thanks for your help. I will comment on the pads and DA post too.

[Kurt_s]

Hi Kurt,

Heat is a normal byproduct of the mechanical oscillating action of plus pressure and time when polishing paint.

The problem is "we" because I'm included in this too, push foam pads to their limit and the result is deterioration of the pad in some fashion.

When I detailed the black Porsche in this thread,

Video: Please help me to welcome Brittany, our Show Car Garage Model, to AutogeekOnline!


The Velcro backing on three 4" Hydro-Tech Pads came un-laminated, not because there was anything wrong with the pad but because I was working the heck out of the tool and the pad to remove swirls.

The heat generated and the violent and repeated oscillating action while the tool is turned on and pressure is applied over time pushes everything to it's limit including the backing plates, the tools and the pads.

I commented on this trend probably 7 years ago that instead of using a tool like a rotary buffer people would tend to push the limits on what a DA can do and it's a trend that continues through to today.

In the last year or so we've seen both Meguiar's and Lake Country re-design their backing plates because people are pushing harder on the tool and making the tool do work it was probably never intended to do.

Spindles are breaking, pads are failing, motors are burning up, backing plates are breaking, adhesives are breaking down, it's not a sign of quality issues, its a result of us pushing all these things to their limit.

Well Mike, Here's an example of a 4" flat pad that seems to have melted after getting the PCXP good and warm with a 6.5" CCS orange pad at speed 6. I did replace the backing plate with a 3.5" but the spindle housing was very warm when I installed the 3.5" backing plate. Speeds were about 4-5 with the white pad with a WG FG3.

[Mike Phillips]

For the future, should I consider a yellow pad before stepping up to water sanding or maybe an HT cyan pad which is supposed to be more aggressive than the CCS orange?

Definitely try a more aggressive pad before sanding. I'm the last person to categorize paint as hard or soft before working on it but I've worked on Audi's that are at both extremes, very soft and very hard and if you're working on factory thin paint that's very hard this will make removing sanding marks difficult. It's always easy to sand paint, the trick is getting your sanding marks out of the paint.

Is there are better wax, sealant or combo when a car is frequently hit with daily sprinklers? Their daughter's bimmer coupe is a mess with water spotting too.

Nothing that's available for the enthusiast detailer that I know of, the best approach would be to find a way to stop the water from landing on the paint, pretty hard to do in some situations.

The only reason I pointed this out was because a few years ago I helped a guy remove water spots off his car, a Corvette I think, and then was is total shock that it happened again after parking in his regular parking space which was next to a sprinkler.

Maybe I should charge for my work?

Right after you give your kids their allowance...