Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

[FUNX650]

Some more about that in this thread...

Thanks for the link RaskyR1...Interesting read!
[Almost confirms my suspicions of CC paint's "ingredients"/characteristics I brought up in my previous post (#34) in this thread.]



Bob

[David Fermani]

Mike – This is a great article! I’ve not only corrected many vehicles equipped with finickey clears, but ones with the notorious (and misrepresented) CeramiClear finish. This finish is actually a joint effort of PPG and Mercedes of Germany. PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).

Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.

The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.

Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.



Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!

[rwright]

Great info David! Nice to hear from you.

[5.4 Shelby]

PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).

Good info David.

Do you know if the BMW M3s have it? Particularly the 2008 convertible? I am looking at one currently. Dont want to deal with owning one if it has that paint.

[Rix6]

Good info David.

Do you know if the BMW M3s have it? Particularly the 2008 convertible? I am looking at one currently. Dont want to deal with owning one if it has that paint.

I think Mike's warning is aimed more towards a detailer taking a cautious approach with a customer's ceramicleared car where the paint polishing history unknown. For your own car that you buy new, why avoid this kind of paint? You'll take care of the car right? If you need to remove some minor swirls you're not going to be removing any more paint than you would with normal clear, thus you will be removing hardly any paint. Personally I'd much rather have ceramiclear on my G37 than the self healing stuff I'm stuck with that scratches if I look at it.


-Rick

[Avi@CarPro]

just my small info knowledge....

ceramic abrassives wear away at defect rather than cutting at them. They roll around on the surface like little balls of metal and reduce the deffects but rounding them over in a more gentle way. Simipliar to rounding over a scratch with a polisher when the paint levels will not let your remove full. By rounding over you defuse the light and with no sharp edges it scatter the direct light and is difused. This is how ceramic polish work

we use this tech inside Fixer btw!

[Mike Phillips]

I think Mike's warning is aimed more towards a detailer taking a cautious approach with a customer's ceramicleared car where the paint polishing history unknown.

-Rick

Exactly. Thank you.


While I'm back in this thread, a few comments...


A BRAND NEW vehicle with a Ceramiclear finish shouldn't need any kind of correction work but if everyone re-reads my first post I was sharing a horror story my friend Shawn ran into when FIXING a BRAND NEW Mercedes-Benz and he was running into PROBLEMS.

From my first post...

The customer bought the car brand new but brand new from the dealership it came with holograms, buffer marks and compound residue everywhere.

The above issues are visual indicators something went wrong.


A brand new Mercedes-Benz AMG from a Mercedes-Benz Dealership should have a brand new, pristine finish. Period.

That fact that it didn't means that there's something terribly wrong with the management of the dealership. It also means the dealership has hired a detailer, or detailers that are not qualified to machine polish paint. By this I mean they don't possess the knowledge or skills necessary to correctly diagnose and then work on paint.

Shawn un-did the damage and restored a customer pleasing finish. I'm going to guess that from this experience he's going to be more careful in the future about fixing other detailers hack work.

You see, sometimes it's not about how GREAT you are at machine polishing paint, sometimes it's about the paint and there are going to be times when you are asked to buff out a car and in some case the wise choice might be to let someone else have the blessing.

My good friend and Pro Detailer Robert DiTerlizzi turned down fixing the scratches in the hood and trunk lid of a BRAND NEW Mercedes-Benz because he decided in was in his best interest to let someone else have the blessing.

I've had nothing but good luck buffing on Ceramiclears but understanding more about them will help me to approach them more wisely into the future and that's all I'm trying to do with this article, help my fellow detailing buddies to avoid getting themselves into a detailing project, previously hacked-up by someone else.

Or like in Robert's scenario, when faced with deep scratches in brand new car with a sticker price in the window of over $500,000.00 to know when to walk away...


My hope is that someday, someone from the car manufacturing world will read our forum and somehow, new cars and trucks will start getting more paint sprayed onto them, not less and sprayed with a paint system that's easier to work on. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Bates Detailing]

Great info and warning - glad I ran across this thread.

[bigez]

My hope is that someday, someone from the car manufacturing world will read our forum and somehow, new cars and trucks will start getting more paint sprayed onto them, not less and sprayed with a paint system that's easier to work on. But I'm not holding my breath.

What about writing some car manufacturers and pointing this out? It seems like they'd want their cars to look better than others and to be represented well at car shows and the like rather than be swirled-up, messes. Then again, I guess it's all about volume with them. Still, just wondering if you ever wrote or spoke to anybody about it. Seems like it'd mean more coming from an industry insider than me, but heck, if a 1,000 "Joe Blows" like myself contacted them a day, they might listen. Who knows, it might be like writing your Senator..hahh. I guess you can tell I'm bored at work today.

They have the technology and means to put together some better paint jobs, but I guess the overall demand is not there.

[Mike Phillips]

What about writing some car manufacturers and pointing this out? It seems like they'd want their cars to look better than others and to be represented well at car shows and the like rather than be swirled-up, messes. Then again, I guess it's all about volume with them. Still, just wondering if you ever wrote or spoke to anybody about it.

To answer your question, no I have never written to any car manufacture with suggestions for their paint systems.

As information spreads via discussion forums like this and the consumers become more knowledgeable, maybe someday a car manufacture would at a minimum offer customer's the option to order a car with a specific type of paint and more of it.


I'm not much of a new car buyer so I'm never going to have to deal with new paint systems on my own cars.

I don't mind being an advocate for the masses on this topic but I don't think what we want for paint systems on new cars will ever be on their radar screen.