Flex - first time experience

[QuinGold]

Thanks for your review and for starting an interesting discussion. I bought a Flex 3401 a few months ago, and despite my initial trepidation (being a small woman with puny arms!) I got along just great with it, even on the doors and vertical panels. My arms were tired, but it really saved my wonky elbow from any more damage - just wiping off the polish and claying etc was enough wear and tear. (The Flex PE8 was another story…in a bit of love/hate relationship with that one!)

I know what you mean about the "buffer trails" - I was always looking for the trail to make sure that I had an adequate amount of polish on the pad. I was using the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze, and I think it's meant to only be used for 3 or 4 passes, not 6. I'm also working in the very dry air in New Mexico. I found spritzing the pad with WG Detail Spritz - and not just priming the pad - allowed the polish to work for an extra pass or two and kept everything moist a little longer.

[mbpress01]

Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.

[DaveT435]

I say use what works best for you. I have a Flex and a PC. Since using the Flex I rarely pick up the PC, except for tight areas. Someone else commented out of the two machines he prefers the PC. Flex-Rupes I don't think one is better than the other, they are both great machines, just different. It's a matter of finding out what works best for you and your style of polishing.

[MIsnowman]

Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.

According to that info. it seems like the 21 would be the best Rupes to get then. The Duetto and Mini would most likely be more like any other DA when they stall (not do very much correcting). It makes sense that correcting can still be accomplished without pad rotation, but it seems like it would take a lot longer.

[fotomatt1]

According to that info. it seems like the 21 would be the best Rupes to get then. The Duetto and Mini would most likely be more like any other DA when they stall (not do very much correcting). It makes sense that correcting can still be accomplished without pad rotation, but it seems like it would take a lot longer.

Actually, my Rupes Mini stalls a lot less frequently than my Rupes 21. It's pretty easy to stop the Rupes 21 on a curved or concave panel, but my Rupes 75e never stops, especially above speed 4. I actually find that my Rupes Mini corrects defects faster than my 21, but it would take a long time to do a whole car with a 4" pad.

[mbpress01]

Fotomatt1. Thx for that. My exact experience was the same as yours. The mini is much easier to control and when you hit a curvy vertical panel it is easy to keep the pad flat and spin. But the whole point in the flex rupes debate is settled, at least for me. I had massive issues with pad stall stop and all I heard was change your technique. This, I believe,is fine but (and this is critical) for Rupes at least YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE THE PAD SPIN TO CORRECT OR FINISH. To me I think in the 3 yrs of research and real world testing I finally had the answer and I thought this was real news and thought I would have seen 1000s of comments but the response was "meh, who cares". I can't figure it out since we have a rupes representative saying spinning is not critical - it is the long throw that matters. I find it amazing in that all the discussion of rupes this was never noted anywhere or if it was it was not emphasized. Sure pad rotation helps speed things up but it is not that critical. For now I am sticking with the flex since I mentally feel better if I see the pad spin and the correction finishing vs the time is remarkable. Smoothness is subjective and I didn't find flex to be that different than rupes. Also and just as critical, the polishes do matter (as per Mike P) so spend your money on the best abrasive product and that will make a difference and maybe more so than the tool or technique.

Any comments welcomed.

[TFTADetail]

I love my Rupes ......... I also love my DeWalt rotary.

No need for anything else in my arsenal. Learn how to use the rotary and you'll never look back.

[MIsnowman]

Fotomatt1. Thx for that. My exact experience was the same as yours. The mini is much easier to control and when you hit a curvy vertical panel it is easy to keep the pad flat and spin. But the whole point in the flex rupes debate is settled, at least for me. I had massive issues with pad stall stop and all I heard was change your technique. This, I believe,is fine but (and this is critical) for Rupes at least YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE THE PAD SPIN TO CORRECT OR FINISH. To me I think in the 3 yrs of research and real world testing I finally had the answer and I thought this was real news and thought I would have seen 1000s of comments but the response was "meh, who cares". I can't figure it out since we have a rupes representative saying spinning is not critical - it is the long throw that matters. I find it amazing in that all the discussion of rupes this was never noted anywhere or if it was it was not emphasized. Sure pad rotation helps speed things up but it is not that critical. For now I am sticking with the flex since I mentally feel better if I see the pad spin and the correction finishing vs the time is remarkable. Smoothness is subjective and I didn't find flex to be that different than rupes. Also and just as critical, the polishes do matter (as per Mike P) so spend your money on the best abrasive product and that will make a difference and maybe more so than the tool or technique.

Any comments welcomed.

I thought your other post was interesting, but to me it doesn't seem practical. Everyone knows that a rotary is king when it comes to speed of correction. How much throw does a rotary have? Not much.......unless your pad is way off center. lol The Rupes might still correct without pad rotation, but it can't be nearly as efficient as it is when the pad is spinning. One of the pros to the Rupes that I've read several times is the ability to reach faster rotation speeds than the flex's gear drive setup. If rotation isn't important why is that a pro? It sounds to me like Rupes is trying to downplay the many complaints of stalling by pointing out that it can still correct even if the pad isn't rotating.

[Ccrew]

If rotation isn't important why is that a pro? It sounds to me like Rupes is trying to downplay the many complaints of stalling by pointing out that it can still correct even if the pad isn't rotating.

Actually that wasn't a Rupes claim, it was a Todd Helme statement in a recent post, and it's slightly out of context. The gist of his statement was that while good pad rotation would give you a better finish with the Rupes due to crosshatching with both rotation and throw, that the Rupe's large amount of throw was more than capable of doing a complete correction with no rotation at all. That correction ultimately came down to sufficient pad movement, which would still exist with the Rupes even barring no rotation.

[Rod73]

Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.

Interesting