New FLEX Tools Introduced at SEMA!

[kkritsilas]

Charge cycles do very much vary, depending on the details of construction, how they are used, how often they are run to 0%, and a number of other, less significant factors. Smartphones are one data point, but not a perfect comparison, as they are purely electronic devices, so their current demands only vary slightly. Polishers use electric motors, so current demand spikes on start up and loading, a different current demand usage pattern. The major unknown is the batteries that have been specified by Flex, and the parameters under which they derived their run times.

As for Lithium batteries dieing with non-use, let's use a laptop as an example. Take a laptop, and let it sit, with or without a charge, for a couple of years. Then try charging it. How much do you want to bet that either won't charge, or will only partially charge? I have had tool battery packs sit around for a few months, and refuse to charge when I have wanted to use the tool, and yes, they were lithium. Even though there is no current draw, the chemical processes inside the battery don't stop. Smartphone batteries have it easy, the see a relatively steady current draw, and get charged every night, for the most part.Even so, there is a thriving industry of small shops that make a living replacing smart phone batteries, and that is entirely due to lithium batteries dieing off. I don't believe that Flex had managed to completely reinvent the chemical processes in lithium batteries, so I believe that they will have the same issues with their lithium batteries that everybody else has.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

How many people who are going to buy a $4-500 Flex cordless polisher are going to let it sit unused for years? Certainly some, but not likely many on this forum. Certainly lithium batteries go bad, but there would hardly be a market for cordless power tools, much less hybrid cars, electric cars, etc., if lithium-ion and lithium-polymer batteries were an unworkable technology which is what you are making it out to be. If you don't like batteries, fine, buy a corded tool. For me, if I'm buying a polisher I don't have, and I have the option to buy a cordless one, and it's not hugely more money, I'm buying the cordless. I'm not trading in my corded Flexes for cordless ones, though. You do what you want.

 

[kkritsilas]

Home users can easily allow a cordless polisher to sit unused for many months during the winter. That may, or may not, shorten the life of the battery pack. A battery pack that may or may not be expensive.

No technology is unusable, when used for its intended purpose. You can buy what ever you want. However, it may be worth you time, anybody's time, to take into consideration the use to which the tool is intended for. As I have said above, there are some very valid use cases for cordless polishers. That being said, it isn't true that a cordless polisher is a great idea in every situation. As pointed out above, production shops are one case where they may not be. I personally do not believe that home users are, either, for the reasons that I have stated above. There hasn't been an issue with extension cords prior to the Flex cordless tools; now, all of a sudden, they are a massive inconvenience. All production shops have multiple outlets, pretty much every place you would want them to be. Most home users do as well. So the need for cordless polishers is justified how?

Flex would like to present this as a revolutionary advance in car polishing. It is, for mobile detailers. For those with access to a power outlet, not so much.

There are a lot more people interested in an XC3401 replacement than the cordless polishers.

I also sincerely doubt that the cordless polisher will be priced the same, or close to, as their corded equivalents, and that doesn't even take into account the need for additional/replacement battery packs.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Home users can easily allow a cordless polisher to sit unused for many months during the winter. That may, or may not, shorten the life of the battery pack. A battery pack that may or may not be expensive.

Do you even have any cordless tools? I don't know how old you are, but I am over 21 and have had experience with plenty of rechargeable battery types, for a long time...ranging from sealed lead-acid to Ni-Cd to NiMh to lithium...I've experienced plenty of battery problems, but I have left lithium batteries from power tools, bluetooth devices, laptops, sitting for years...not months, years, and not had the problems you describe. Is it possible? Sure.

You have your notions and your situation, and I have mine...and I can tell you that I am tired of dragging extension cords around, if I don't have to. Do I have corded tools/vacuums/etc. etc. etc.? Yes, many many. Am I getting rid of any of them? As I said before, no. But as somebody who has climbed up ladders with 100' 12 ga. extension cords over my shoulder, I'm much happier climbing up there with a cordless device. As I said, you do what you want, it's not like I don't understand what you are saying, I get it. You can stop now.

 

[kkritsilas]

Since you have chosen to try and attack me personally, I can state the following: I am 57 years old, so like you, I am over 21. I do own cordless tools, mostly Hitachi and Milwaukee The Hitachi are nickel metal hydride (NiMH). The Milwaukee are M18 Fuel. I have owned DeWalt tools as well, in the past. J am a hobbyist in terms of use. I just had to replace 2 Milwaukee M18 (lithium) battery packs. In replacing them, I re-examined my use of the Milwaukee cordless tools, as the 2 Fuel battery packs cost more than a high quality corded Milwaukee Drill. which is one of the tools that the battery packs are used with. These are considered to be really good tools, and the battery packs are supposed to be among the best in the power tool industry. Total life span was just over two years. Point was, and remains, that this is not cost effective for me. The battery packs, lithium as they may be, as high quality as Milwaukee is considered to be, still died after just over two years of what I would describe as light use. I don't expect that the Flex battery packs will be significantly different.

Another thing that you may wish to try and attack is my thoughts on lithium and its properties. Let us put it this way: I spent 12 years at Nortel Networks as a component engineer, with a large part of my daily work involving battery back up systems for cellular base stations. so I have a slight bit of knowledge regarding battery technology. All battery technology, including lithium. If you would like to discuss the minutia of lithium batteries, just say the word. Just keep one thing in mind: All of the telephone systems around the work, and all of the cellular base stations around the world use battery backup. because they are critical systems; if there is downtime on these systems, lives could be lost. Ask yourself why NONE of these systems are using lithium batteries for backup power, if lithium is such a perfect battery technology.

Some of my preference are simply that, preferences. However, lithium batteries, their technology, and their wear out mechanism are neither preference nor a matter of opinion. They are basic chemistry., and when you do understand them, lithium is not perfect, lithium batteries do wear out, and the batteries are expensive to replace. Tool vendors love to sell cordless tools; they are guaranteed a revenue source for a long time going forward. However, corded tools are generally cheaper for the same performance level, and will NOT need a battery pack replacement periodically. There are use cases that mandate a cordless tool, and there are use cases for a corded tool. However. to assume that all use cases demand a cordless tool is being blind to reality. My earlier posts stated my opinion regarding where a cordless tool makes sense, and where it doesn't. You are going to buy what ever you want, but do it knowing exactly why you are buying it; don't buy it on the basis of this is the latest tool released. The corded versions of the Flex cordless tools that were shown at SEMA are very, very good, well proven tools.To automatically pass over them because of the new cordless tools would be a mistake, and just so this is clear: IF THERE ISN'T A COMPELLING REASON TO GET A CORDLESS TOOL, THEN STICK WITH A CORDED TOOL..

As to your not wanting to haul a cable 100 feet, I couldn't agree more. This is a perfect case for using a cordless tool. I stated so in my earlier posting. However, it is hard for me to see anybody needing a 100' cord in a home garage or in a production detailing shop. Sure, I can see a 25' cord (and it would be a 14 ga. cord). So in a Home user context, or a production shop context, the advantages of a cordless too are just not there.

 

[RippyD]

Lot of opinion here on how batteries work. Li-ion batteries have limited full charge cycles. It gets confusing because not all charging is a full charge cycle. Nearly empty to fully charged is a charge cycle. Partial charges have less impact on the battery. Li-ion also self-discharge at a rate of ~2% per month, but it's not linear so you should expect a cell to be dead after 3 years or so with no charge. Once they get below a certain voltage they may not take a charge, so they appear to have a shelf-life. It more a matter of not letting them drop too low.

A lot more info here.

 

[kkritsilas]

You are correct in the definition of charge cycles. In the context of the cordless polishers though, it is sort of a moot point. Anybody who buys one of these polishers will want to run them until either completely, or almost completely dead. The run times are only rated at 45 minutes, and there are no guidelines as to how this was arrived at. So if the real world use proves out the 45 minute run time, and as stated, the battery takes 30-45 minutes to recharge, I don't see anybody stopping the polisher say 20 minutes in order to save on charge cycles. If they do that, they will be taking a 10-25 minute break while waiting for an empty battery pack to charge up., or they will need a third battery pack.

There are a lot of unknowns regarding the cordless Flex polishers. The conditions under which the battery run times were derived is one. Another is the number of charge cycles that the battery packs are rated for (most are rated for 300 cycles, some at 500 cycles, but Apple defines the charge cycles at 1000 cycles to decline to 80% of full capacity for their laptops as an example). Last, but certainly not least is the price of the battery packs in each size (Mike Philips says they come in two sizes), and of the cordless polishers themselves. So a lot of unknowns to be determined by the time that the polishers arrive.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You are correct in the definition of charge cycles. In the context of the cordless polishers though, it is sort of a moot point. Anybody who buys one of these polishers will want to run them until either completely, or almost completely dead. The run times are only rated at 45 minutes, and there are no guidelines as to how this was arrived at. So if the real world use proves out the 45 minute run time, and as stated, the battery takes 30-45 minutes to recharge, I don't see anybody stopping the polisher say 20 minutes in order to save on charge cycles. If they do that, they will be taking a 10-25 minute break while waiting for an empty battery pack to charge up., or they will need a third battery pack.

Presuming the charge time is fairly linear...isn't your math a bit off here? If the run time of the pack is roughly equivalent to the charge time, and you stop when the pack is half discharged, then it will only take half the time of a full charge...so for argument's sake, let's say the run time and the charge time is 40 minutes...if you stop after 20 minutes, the battery will take 20 minutes to recharge, which will be exactly when you are ready to take the other one out. That's presuming you didn't stop to put polish on the pad, didn't stop to wipe anything off, didn't stop to have a drink of water, didn't stop to inspect your work, take a phone call, etc. etc...in which case your other battery will be charged before you are down to 50% on the first one. That's presuming you remembered to put the half-used one in to charge...that's why I keep the backup battery next to the charger and plug the old one in before picking up the new one.

But I agree that most people are just going to run the battery down to nothing. You know, life is a bunch of compromises...corded tools have their pros and cons, cordless tools have their pros and cons. All mobile things are some sort of tradeoff...cars run out of gas, cell phones run out of power, my damn lawnmower runs out of gas sometimes in the middle of the yard and I have to walk all the way to the garage to get the gas can...if only I had an electric one that had a cord. I could argue that an electric train is the best mode of transportation because it never runs out of fuel or charge.

And to quote Val Kilmer..."there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing"

 

[richy]

Home users can easily allow a cordless polisher to sit unused for many months during the winter. That may, or may not, shorten the life of the battery pack. A battery pack that may or may not be expensive.

No technology is unusable, when used for its intended purpose. You can buy what ever you want. However, it may be worth you time, anybody's time, to take into consideration the use to which the tool is intended for. As I have said above, there are some very valid use cases for cordless polishers. That being said, it isn't true that a cordless polisher is a great idea in every situation. As pointed out above, production shops are one case where they may not be. I personally do not believe that home users are, either, for the reasons that I have stated above. There hasn't been an issue with extension cords prior to the Flex cordless tools; now, all of a sudden, they are a massive inconvenience. All production shops have multiple outlets, pretty much every place you would want them to be. Most home users do as well. So the need for cordless polishers is justified how?

Flex would like to present this as a revolutionary advance in car polishing. It is, for mobile detailers. For those with access to a power outlet, not so much.

There are a lot more people interested in an XC3401 replacement than the cordless polishers.

I also sincerely doubt that the cordless polisher will be priced the same, or close to, as their corded equivalents, and that doesn't even take into account the need for additional/replacement battery packs.

Amen to that. The cord doesn't bother me...the excessive heat does.

 

[theamcguy]

Mike when can we expect a review of the 2 new cordless tools from Flex? TIA

 

[InnovativeAutoDetail]

I hope the batteries are good. I have a DeWalt drill and impact set and I am on the second set of batteries. Heat and constant use killed the first two.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I hope the batteries are good. I have a DeWalt drill and impact set and I am on the second set of batteries. Heat and constant use killed the first two.

Check out this article I wrote,

NEW Cordless FLEX Tools at Autogeek Rotary and Orbital Polishers


And specifically these pictures...



Built-in Air Cooling
The biggest enemy to cordless batteries is heat. All FLEX Cordless tools have inboard cooling fans to keep the rechargeable batteries cool and there's a wire mesh screen to filter air before it's circulated.

Cooling intake and exhaust vents on the batteries


Fresh air intake vents
Here you can see where the air is blown in

Exhaust vents
Here you can see where the air is blown out

FLEX is up to speed...

FLEX will be sharing these new tools next week at Mobile Tech Expo and I will also be sharing them in at least one of my classes.

 

[InnovativeAutoDetail]

Check out this article I wrote,

NEW Cordless FLEX Tools at Autogeek Rotary and Orbital Polishers


And specifically these pictures...



Built-in Air Cooling
The biggest enemy to cordless batteries is heat. All FLEX Cordless tools have inboard cooling fans to keep the rechargeable batteries cool and there's a wire mesh screen to filter air before it's circulated.

Cooling intake and exhaust vents on the batteries


Fresh air intake vents
Here you can see where the air is blown in

Exhaust vents
Here you can see where the air is blown out

FLEX is up to speed...

FLEX will be sharing these new tools next week at Mobile Tech Expo and I will also be sharing them in at least one of my classes.

Awesome! Thanks Mike, these definitely will be good to go!