Buffing "Work" time...

[Kevin Brown]

We were just starting to get into a good discussion on another thread (which was closed!) about compounds and their working times, meaning, how long you can use a single application of the compound before it does not deliver the same level of performance.

In the discussion, "dusting" was also a topic. Some good info from PorscheGuy997 and C Charles Hahn was listed in there!

Anyway, to part of the statement made by Son1cWax:


"...In my utopia I would be buffing with zero dust!...

...I know that there will always be some dust. However with compounds like wolfgang uber, and v32 I receive a third or so of the dust I do with say m105 and m101... (granted m101 ---I call 105 2.0 -- is huge step above 105 imo and much more user friendly with great cut, I've also used the pre-voc 101 from overseas and we found that to be above the voc complaint 101 in terms of workability and cut).

... I've also been able to cut down on dust since I've been using more microfiber pads as opposed to foam...


Hopefully some of the other guys will chime in to discuss WHY you're seeing less dust using microfiber vs foam, and how to control dusting issues.

The main thing I'd like to be known is this:

There's only been ONE formulation of Meguiar's M101.

It has ALWAYS been VOC compliant.

So, if you felt that there was a difference, then it would have to be credited to a change in procedure, pad, machine, temperature, humidity, paint type... or something not related to the compound's design.

M101 in its current form (regardless of where you purchased it), is the SAME throughout the world, and has always been VOC compliant.

[Bigbull2984]

Great thread, I know I have time to time used too much product and that's why I had excess dust.

[Flash Gordon]

I could care less about dusting as long as I am getting the results that I'm looking for

[PlayDoh]

I'm guessing some/most of this thread-repost is missing?

I'm a newb and learning my way still and I'm at the moment learning the finer details on Buffing work time. I'm somewhat suspicions that something is off, or fairly different then what I expected.

I've watched a few videos, and I recently got and read Mike's book "Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine" so I have a decent concept I believe.

My issue is that I find my product dries up much quicker then I would expect. Especially compared to the videos I've watched. However Mike's book, which calls it "buffing cycle" states you want "wet film behind you path of travel".

Makes sense, and I know all the contributing factors that increase or decrease the buffing cycle, but I get roughly 1 section pass in before it begins to dry and maybe another half section before its all dry. Does that sound about right? That's with a rotary at 1300 - 1800 rpm.

I'm using LC CCS pads with 105/205 mainly, but I have some Meg's soft buff pads also. The Meg's seem to give a bit more working time, and the DA definitely gets more 'time' (buffing cycle).

I guess what I find surprising is how much product it would take to do an entire car/truck. I initially expected a 32oz bottle of compound to do like a dozen cars. Now I would guess 2, 3 or 4 at best, at 2 section passes per section. I feel like I have to be cheap with it, especially since I'm only working on spare/scrap hoods and fenders, lol.

Am I missing something, or is 2, 3, 4 cars per 32oz sound about right? That would definitely increase my estimated cost of materials per unit. I'm in Canada and can't get gallons from AG without USPS making it almost the same as buying 4 32oz bottles at $40 a pop locally.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm guessing some/most of this thread-repost is missing?

I'm a newb and learning my way still and I'm at the moment learning the finer details on Buffing work time. I'm somewhat suspicions that something is off, or fairly different then what I expected.

I've watched a few videos, and I recently got and read Mike's book "Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine" so I have a decent concept I believe.

My issue is that I find my product dries up much quicker then I would expect. Especially compared to the videos I've watched. However Mike's book, which calls it "buffing cycle" states you want "wet film behind you path of travel".

Makes sense, and I know all the contributing factors that increase or decrease the buffing cycle, but I get roughly 1 section pass in before it begins to dry and maybe another half section before its all dry. Does that sound about right? That's with a rotary at 1300 - 1800 rpm.

I'm using LC CCS pads with 105/205 mainly, but I have some Meg's soft buff pads also. The Meg's seem to give a bit more working time, and the DA definitely gets more 'time' (buffing cycle).

I guess what I find surprising is how much product it would take to do an entire car/truck. I initially expected a 32oz bottle of compound to do like a dozen cars. Now I would guess 2, 3 or 4 at best, at 2 section passes per section. I feel like I have to be cheap with it, especially since I'm only working on spare/scrap hoods and fenders, lol.

Am I missing something, or is 2, 3, 4 cars per 32oz sound about right? That would definitely increase my estimated cost of materials per unit. I'm in Canada and can't get gallons from AG without USPS making it almost the same as buying 4 32oz bottles at $40 a pop locally.

Are you priming your pad?

Try spritzing the panel you are working on with water. This will reactivate your compound and allow more working time and also provide more cut IMO

Under normal circumstances I can polish a dozen (or more) cars with 32oz

Another option would be Menzerna

[Mike Phillips]

but I get roughly 1 section pass in before it begins to dry and maybe another half section before its all dry.

Does that sound about right?

That's with a rotary at 1300 - 1800 rpm.

I'm using LC CCS pads with 105/205 mainly, but I have some Meg's soft buff pads also.

With rotary buffers you can tackle larger sections at a time but that doesn't mean you have to.

A rotary buffer will generate a lot more heat and do it a lot faster than any of the dual action counterparts and the heat will cause the liquids in any compound or polish to evaporate/dissipate faster.

Also, when starting with a dry pad, the pad itself will tend to absorb some portion of the liquid in the products you're using and that can affect the buffing cycle.

The temperature and humidity where you're doing your work can also affect a products buffing cycle or buffing time.

Here's something I wrote on this topic in the below thread, while this was targeted at the Porter Cable PC 7424XP it has some crossover application to working with rotary buffers with compounds.


Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher to remove Below Surface Defects

The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.


In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.


Factors that affect the buffing cycle include,

• Ambient temperature
• Surface temperature
• Size of work area
• Type of machine
• Type of pad material
• Humidity
• Wind or air flow surrounding the car
• Amount of product used
• Technique

Wet buffing technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind swirls and scratches.


Dry Buffing Technique - Buffing to a dry buff
There are some products on the market where the manufacture recommends buffing the product until it dries. As the product dries you’ll tend to see some dusting as the product residue becomes a powder and the paint will have a hard, dry shine to it.

Although some manufactures recommend this, it’s important to understand what’s taking place at the surface level as you buff to a dry buff. As the product dries, in essence you are losing the lubricating features of the product and as this happens friction and heat will increase. As friction and heat increases, so does the risk of micro-marring the paint or instilling swirls either by the product residue or the pad material and/or a combination of both.

While we trust that the manufacture knows their products best, when we take a close look at what it means to buff on a delicate surface like an automotive clear coat, it doesn’t make sense to run a buffing pad on top of the paint without some kind of wet film to lubricate the paint at the same time. We always recommend that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations and use your own judgment.

Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and taught to others,

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path of travel of the buffer should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing. Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.

One of the most important things you can do no matter what the tool or product or all other factors is to clean your pad often, even after each section you buff. There's always two things building up on the face of your buffing pads when doing any correction or polishing steps,

1. Spent product
2. Removed paint

More info here...


Why it's important to clean your pads often...

[Mike Phillips]

So, if you felt that there was a difference, then it would have to be credited to a change in procedure, pad, machine, temperature, humidity, paint type... or something not related to the compound's design.

Good info as always Kevin...


What happened to your Avatar?

[PlayDoh]

Thanks so much guys.

I started with the DA, and only recently got my rotary. First thing I noticed when I first used the foam pad with the rotary was the heat. Water spritz sounds like a great idea. I'm priming the pads, yet my latest work was done with a new pad. I even spritzed the pad with CG pad conditioner before starting.

Glad to hear I can expect to get a dozen cars out of a bottle. I'm certain I'm using too much.

Again thanks a lot. Loved your book Mike, very well written and put together.