Optimum Hyper Compound on yellow foam pad, not enough cut?

[WRAPT C5Z06]

randoms don't really do swirls for me..not without a lot of passes.....a rotary is what I need for real correction....

As I just stated, MF pads and a DA will blow away any foam pad and a DA. DA + foam pads + heavy swirls = less than stellar results. However, MF pads are still not on par with a rotary, but sure closed the gap.

[Mike Phillips]

I found that lessening the amount of product I used actually increased the defect removal. Most likely due to over lubricating.

That's a good tip.

If you overuse a product you can over lubricate or hyper-lubricate the surface and instead of the abrasives biting in and taking bites out of the paint they tend to glide over the surface. There is a balance though because if you don't have enough product then you will not have enough abrasives or enough lubricants to enable the pad to rotate effectively.

LC Orange pads are an absolute joke for removing heavy swirls.

I can't even begin to count how many cars I've de-swirled using an orange cutting pad on a DA Polisher....

I've even used them on Corvettes with a Medium Cut Polish and removed swirls. They are a very good pad and everyone should have some in their arsenal of pads. Especially the 5.5" Lake Country Flat Pads. To me this is a staple in a person's detailing arsenal.

[Mike Phillips]

To the OP,

Read through the below and make sure you're not making any of the common mistakes and also read the solution.


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide

Tyler, age 15 removing swirls using a Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher

When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

• Removed paint

• Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often...

How to clean your foam pad on the fly

How to use the Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I've even used them on Corvettes with a Medium Cut Polish and removed swirls.

That sounds like a pretty tall task to me. Then again, you could be talking about removing light swirls. There's just no way an orange pad and a medium cut polish will completely remove *heavy* swirls on a hard clear. If that were the case, the orange pad is the end all to polishing. The orange pad will work in some scenarios, but I never reach for them when heavy correction is needed.

[Mike Phillips]

That sounds like a pretty tall task to me. Then again, you could be talking about removing very light swirls. There's just no way an orange pad and a medium cut polish will completely remove *heavy* swirls on a hard clear. If that were the case, the orange pad is the end all to polishing.

Nah... just used good technique....


You post some pretty strong opinions and that's okay but it's not fair to discount the Lake Country Orange Foam Cutting pads. I remember when you first started posting to this forum, back when you were new to detailing, like this thread,


What color foam pad do you find yourself using the most for defect removal?


Eric Dunn is a Pad Specialist and a representative of one of our vendors, Lake Country Buffing Pads and I'm sure he would not agree with your strong opinion either.

LC Orange pads are an absolute joke for removing heavy swirls.

I agree with you that "fiber" type pads can be more aggressive in their cutting action because the fibers themselves cut the paint.

It's also for this reason that I state that to date, foam still finishes out nicer than fiber pads, (which cut the paint).

Besides their ability to remove swirls, the Lake Country Orange Foam Cutting pads are some of the easiest pads to learn how to use, become proficient with and take diamonds in the rough and turn them into glistening gemstones.

Then after mastering foam cutting pads, people new to machine polishing can then test the waters trying out fiber pads.

Just to note when I did my initial testing of the Meguiar's Microfiber pads before launch, some of my comments back to Jason Rose were that "their" microfiber cutting pads didn't offer a lot of cushion because they have a thin, dense foam backing and my "opinion" was that this was a negative factor for people "new" to machine polishing.

Foam buffing pads like the Orange Foam Cutting pads by Lake Country offer more flex and cushion and this helps them to conform to non-flat panels as well as provide a level of safety around curved edges. This makes these pads easier for anyone new to machine polishing to use.


Make sense?

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I will admit I was too harsh by saying the LC Orange pads are an "absolute joke" for removing heavy swirls, but I still don't think they're nearly as effective as other options out there. They do work very well for some applications, but not so good when you really need some bite. You make it seem like they're on par with a wool pad and rotary.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

However, I do apologize for bashing the orange pad. I need to think before I type sometimes. Sorry about that. I think my technique is good, but maybe it still needs some work.

[Mike Phillips]

However, I do apologize for bashing the orange pad. I need to think before I type sometimes. Sorry about that.

I've been posting to the Internet since 1994, not as long as some but probably longer than most and I've learned to re-read everything I type and just make sure it's accurate and helpful as those are to different categories of information.

Other things I've learned is you never know who's reading your posts. I'm always caught off guard and surprised at some of the people that I meet that say things like,

I read all your articles

Not going to name names, but just to say last year at SEMA I heard that from some real movers and shakers in the industry and it caught me by surprise. So I try to keep in mind that my posting history reflects me to a very wide audience as it does for you Mark and everyone reading this.

Not a big deal if a person is a detailer or a hobbyist hanging out on a forum but if a person ever wants to take their passion to a higher level then it's important to think about what you write and then try to say or type things in a way that is both accurate and helpful and even professional...

I think my technique is good, but maybe it still needs some work.

Ha ha... that's what I'm always telling myself...

You've come a long way since you first started and now you're continually helping others to become better. Doesn't get any better than that buddy.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Thanks, Mike.

Not maybe, but YES, I do need to keep improving my technique. I have a long way to go.

It's good to be humbled like this. I don't mind it at all. I go off on these tangents sometimes when I have no right to. Takes a lot to admit this, but sometimes you have to man up!

[Buckskincolt]

I really don't feel that there is that much cut difference between the M105 and the Hyper compound. I do find that both really change their capabilitys with the pad choice.
A look here: Autogeek Swirl Removers & Compounds Comparison Chart at the polish chart backs that up. They are both rated heavy cut and M105 only one step more aggressive than the hyper compound. I doubt that this would make a night and day difference.

The OP may need a fiber pad to work on a very hard clear. I also think as he is new a big part of him having some trouble is his techniques, and learning the polishes. This is not to bash him at all, I remember my frustration trying to get correction. I would work and work and not get the results, then go ask questions, watch videos and try again. As I learned my results improved. If you had ask me after my first fail I would have sworn that I followed directions and did everything right, Just like people said and in the videos ..... But small changes later, wow better results.

I think a lot of people think they can buy the buffer, a couple polishes and fix paint. They can with practice and guidance but rarely is a persons first time flawless. Also the OP has a challenging project he is trying to start on making it even more difficult.

Technique first then maybe a different pad choice is what he needs to do to get the results he desires.