Opti-Coat/Opti-Guard and Poli-Seal Problem

[gmck]

Hi Chris,

Rather than continue the old thread, I thought I’d start a new thread. There are too many other types of OC/OG and other product questions in that thread that don’t relate to this problem, so I thought this OG/PS problem could use separation from those other questions. For those of you who want to read the back ground to this thread please see the following thread http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...estions-3.html

Before this thread goes off in a typical tangent as tends to happen here, I’d like to say that I think that OC/OG is a revolutionarily product. In my opinion there is no other product that even comes close to the protection that OC/OG provides.

This new Poli-Seal problem has absolutely nothing to do with the protection features of OC/OG, nor the new layering ability of OC/OG. I’ve also now moved on from OC to OG, but I don’t believe that this problem is exclusive to OG and therefore I’d expect the same problem would also apply to an OC application.

The only reason this problem became apparent was that while testing the new layering ability of OG, I decided to use Poli-Seal between coats in an attempt to improve the finish of the first coat of OG (see the other thread for more background). In all probability that step wasn’t required and was an overkill and not actually worth the effort. However if I hadn’t performed that step, I would never have been aware of the problem. So the simple solution to this particular problem is don’t do it. That is don’t use use Poli-Seal between coats – problem solved. Poli-Seal will remove the original coat of OC/OG.

If you haven’t done an OC/OG application you may be wondering why Poli-Seal is even getting a mention here, so some background explanation is probably necessary at this point. The surface of a fully cured OC/OG application is not slick. A MF towel doesn’t glide across the surface, like it does on paint that has just had a sealant applied. The finished surface of an OC/OG application, not surprisingly, actually feels exactly the same as fresh paint.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that, as it was designed to be like that. Unfortunately this industry has done it’s very best to convince all of us that “slick is best”. Optimum Technologies is just as guilty as any other company in this respect. For example, read their marketing material about Opti-Seal, Poli-Seal and Optimum Car Wax, to observe the use of the word “slick”. So, you can hardly blame us consumers for wanting “slick”, because we have become conditioned to “slick” and therefore many of us would prefer a slicker finish than OC/OG provides.

OC/OG is designed to resist contaminants – it is designed so that in theory nothing will stick to it and that includes itself. So in effect you aren’t even able to layer it. For example if you did decide to use a topper, the longevity/durability of the product would be greatly reduced because more than likely it would wash off an OC/OG surface during the next wash. The other disadvantage of using a topper is that the surface then tends to take on the characteristics of the topper until again it is washed away when the original characteristics of OC/OG will be revealed again.

You are probably still thinking so where does Poli-Seal come into this. OC/OG can be a tricky product to apply for a first time user. Until you have some experience with it, it is very easy to screw up an application or part of an application. Because OC/OG is a clear liquid it can be very difficult to actually see the product going onto the surface of paint. Additional it has a very limited working life (even more so with OG), so if you are not very careful you will more than likely end up with a high spot. A high spot is an area where you have applied the product too thickly and allowed it to partially cure. When fully cured it will look like a stain in the paint.

The stain will look different on darker coloured paints as compared to lighter coloured paints. On dark coloured paint you may not even initially notice the stain. When OC was first released the standard advice to correct this situation was to completely remove the product from the affected panel (via polishing) and reapply the product. I like many first time users did screw up my first OC application (back in April) and even my second application (yeh - slow learner) and Chris advised me to start over. During the discussion on the Optimum forum Dr. G chimed in and contradicted Chris’s advice with the following “Yes, you can use a light cut pad with Poli-Seal to level the high spots and there is no need to redo the application.” Well as you can probably guess, that was great news as far as I was concerned. That advice allowed me to finish many OC/OG applications after curing with an additional polish of Poli-Seal on a red pad to add the slickness that I desired. Obviously, not everyone desires the slick finish, so I’ve now done plenty of vehicles with and without the extra Poli-Seal step. I also advise clients who like the slick finish feel to maintain the finish with Optimum Car Wax after each wash or second wash.

Since that time Chris has repeatedly advised users here and on other forums to use Poli-Seal for minor corrections to remove high spots.

Last weekend, I just happened to be doing some testing of a couple of polishes using MF pads on the bonnet of my own vehicle, when I read here that Chris said the latest version of OC/OG could be layered. Since I already knew I would need to re OG my bonnet, it seemed a very appropriate time to try layering OG.

After the first coat of OG, I then decided to polish that coat with Poli-Seal before I applied the second coat. Poli-Seal contains mild abrasives and polymer sealants and maybe even some Carnauba, so obviously if you use Poli-Seal and then intend to apply OC/OG there is a requirement to first remove the protection that Poli-Seal would have applied to the surface. So I went ahead and removed the protection. On rinsing off, I immediately noticed no beading at all, the surface was completely flat. The obvious conclusion was that the Poli-Seal had completely removed the OG.

I’ve since applied another coat of OG and have tried another couple of mild polishes to see if I can reproduce the problem. I don’t have many one steppers to choose from as I don’t do that sort of work. I tried Sonax Paint Cleaner Nano Technology Based Liquid Polish which is also meant to be a very mild cleaner but does contain abrasives. It did exactly the same thing – that is it also totally removed the OG. I also picked up a bottle of Sonax Easy Shine at a local auto shop to try. The label doesn’t describe exactly what is in it, so I presume it is just a cleaner. Even using this product, it was evident that there was very little beading left and that it also removed or partially removed the OG.

Of course this also raises the question of how to care for an OC/OG finish. Even with a perfectly OC/OG finished vehicle bad stuff will or can happen. Nothing lasts forever, so maintenance will eventually be required. It now looks like Poli-Seal, as recommended by Optimum, should not be that product.

I’m surprised that no one has come across this problem before. I suppose, it is due to the fact that OC is still a relatively new product to many and that no one here who does use PS or OCW after OC/OG would normally clean their vehicle with a strong detergent solution such as is normally used to strip a vehicle.

[Chris Thomas]

I answered this in the other thread you posted in.

[Hoytman]

I answered this in the other thread you posted in.

and explained clearly too.

So, wait a month for the product to fully cure before using any poli-seal and problem is solved.

[gmck]

I answered this in the other thread you posted in.

My apologies Chris. I was offline writing my message and didn’t see your response. I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve now transferred the pertinent parts of your reply back to this thread.

While 22 hours is plenty of time for Opti Guard to flash and crosslink, it will not be fully hardened (polishable) for over a month. My posts recommending Poli Seal were regarding cleaning maintenence after a few months.

With all due respect Chris, you are again contradicting Dr. G. as quoted above in this thread. Surely, you can’t have it both ways. Back in April when Dr. G last contradicted your advice, he stated that PS could be used to remove high spots without any necessity to re-apply. Now I think you are inferring that if PS is used within a potential 2 month period it will totally remove the OC/OG.

Could I please request that you ask Dr. G for his comments?

I intend to test another neighbour’s vehicle either later today or tomorrow. This vehicle was only either OC’d or OG’d at the end of September, I don’t remember which without checking my records, so I assume you would consider that a safe period and a fair test. I’ll post the result as soon as I’m done.

I'm certain that this unnecessary step fully removed your first layer.

Well we certainly agree on that point.

This is a welcomed improvement over the original release of the pro version

I again agree, the ability to layer is a very welcomed improvement.

[Perfections]

I can only speak for OG, but if you wait about 24 hours after initial application and find any high spots, use PS by HAND with light pressure and a MF towel to remove the high spots and you'll still have your protection from OG. Wait about a month after initial application and strip off the any remaining PS, and you should still have your crazy beading from OG. I usually keep my customers cars overnight and pull them out into the sun the next day for inspection and have used this PS trick several times. Then after a month I give the customer a courtesy wash to inspect my results, and have always seen that the OG is still there.

[Flannigan]

Isn't it funny whenever someone says "with all due respect" something lacking respect comes next?

[Chris Thomas]

My apologies Chris. I was offline writing my message and didn’t see your response. I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve now transferred the pertinent parts of your reply back to this thread.

No worries, I was just telling you wher to find it.

With all due respect Chris, you are again contradicting Dr. G. as quoted above in this thread. Surely, you can’t have it both ways. Back in April when Dr. G last contradicted your advice, he stated that PS could be used to remove high spots without any necessity to re-apply. Now I think you are inferring that if PS is used within a potential 2 month period it will totally remove the OC/OG.

Could I please request that you ask Dr. G for his comments?

I talked to him before replying to you to make sure I wasnt just giving you opinion but right information. Doesn't the fact that PS removes excess coating kind of imply that it will remove the coating if continued to work past clearing up the high spot? I'm not sure why with as many times as you've asked for help, you keep talking to me like you do. I've been nothing but helpful. When you call him tomorrow at 901-363-4955 and he confirms my info, be sure to come back and apologize for your tone and misquoting us.

[Flannigan]

Well said Chris! You've got lots of class my friend! You and Dr. G keep up the good work, it is greatly appreciated!

[ryanmcg1]

Chris handled this very professionally. Also mike just posted this forum rule in another thread a few hours ago. Forum Rules


4. No bashing any company or their products. No bashing other people.

[CEE DOG]

I didn't read the other thread but I didn't see any bashing here. Sounds like a quest for knowledge followed by a misunderstanding. I could be wrong... Just my take. No offense intended.

To the subject... If waiting one month is good then waiting 3 months is better..