Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I didn't ask who said it was the reason, I asked where did Rupes the company say it was the reason. They have a list of advantages for the machine but I don't see increased spin among them.

RSW

Oh, so you want to play on words? Jason Rose of Rupes did not say pad rotation was increased with the Mark II? They did that just for the sake of doing it with no reason?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike@ShineStruck]

Where does Rupes say increasing spin was the reason for the Mark II?

RSW

Same max OPM, Mark II just has a better power band within that max opm

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I'm not sure what kind of ego trip RSW is on, but the Mark II has more rotational spinning power and that's a FACT. I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered increasing rotational power if it didn't improve correct performance. Unless, the strictly wanted to satisfy the masses...lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Philips146]

Todd any info on pricing yet?

[Todd@RUPES]

Very well written explanation Todd. You are a very good writer.

I consider myself a perpetual student and that's because I completely understand that new technology is being introduced at such a high speed that the only way to stay up with it is to be open to learning.

That's why I don't believe there's any such thing as an expert. Nobody can know everything at the rate new information is being introduced except for perhaps AI.

I will say I've buffed out a lot of cars in my life and was in this industry when the Porter Cable 7424 and the 7336 were introduced to the car detailing world and have used pretty much all the recognized, popular and talked about polishers on the market.

I've never seen paint defects removed in a timely manner with any free spinning orbital polisher without pad rotation but I'm 100% open to seeing it.




And that's my point. You need both and especially if you want to buff out a car in any acceptable time period.


Again, well written piece Todd. RUPES is lucky to have you as a part of their team.

I 100% percent agree with the following points

A) You should always be a student - I am so lucky to be surrounded by the engineers at RUPES, to be involved in technical discussions, and to have Jason Rose as a mentor. I have also had the benefit of working alongside some educational powerhouses, including one Mike Phillips for a number of years at PBMG and of course before then too

B) I also don't believe in experts, per say. My focus, because of the people I am surrounded by, the company I work for, and my title as a Techincal Sales Manager for North (and South) America have forced me to ramp up my technical understanding of all things paint polishing. I am far from an expert and as the saying goes, "The more I know the more I realize I don't."

C) I agree that losing rotation is going to have, in almost every conceivable circumstance, a negative impact on polishing performance. However, over rotation can also have a negative impact. With a random orbital DA, there is a sweet spot between pad rotation, friction, orbital action, etc. Over rotation of the pad can reduce cut and reduce the cross-hatching movement a random orbital produces, leading to less-than-homogenous surface.


This part I may not agree with so much "RUPES is lucky to have you" lol. However I do my best. Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow old friend (and mentor).

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd,

Thanks for that explanation.

You wrote, "So if you plant part of the pad against the paint enough to stall rotation, what can happen is the pad binds up internally, and much of the orbital (polishing) movement is lost as well - like a bowl of jello jiggling on itself. To make matters worse, not only have we lost movement (orbital and rotational), but the lost energy is being converted to heat waste inside the pad."

Isn't that why Rupes makes their pads thinner and stiffer? And why a long nap wool pad on a random orbital doesn't work well - the fiber of the wool flexes and reduces the amount of movement between the pad and the paint.

The BigFoot pads are fairly stiff foams to maximize the transfer of energy to the paint for effective polishing with minimal heat loss. However, the BigFoot pads aren't too thin (because a lot of attention was paid to the specific foam formulas). The height of our pads does help with balancing and comfort, although a lot of guys prefer a thinner pad.

Yes, a long nap wool pad will absorb too much movement in the yarn length (unless a lot of down pressure is used), reducing their effectiveness.

Also, it occurs to me that when a random orbital is run with the edge of the pad against a surface and the spin stops, the drop in performance is because that movement at the edge of the pad isn't a full orbit. instead of the full 21mm per orbit which is, Pi X 21mm X 2000RPMs and creates 131,880 mm of movement. you get at the very edge where there is no spin 21mm X 2000RPMs for 42,000 mm of movement - a dramatic drop because the pad is moving back and forth at the edge, not in a full circle. The lack of spin most certainly hurts it that case, but when the pad is flat against a surface it's not the same because even though the pad is stalled, the edges are still getting the full 21mm of movement.

Yes, but it is even worse if we are talking about the vertical edge of the pad (or near enough where the face of the pad is rolling into the edge) because the movement of the backing plate is almost like a boxer punching.. In this case, you would want rotation to generate friction, although you are creating a lot of flex inside the pad.

When it comes to random orbital machines, where does the spin come from? How much energy, and therefore polishing action, is in that spin?

RSW

A lot of factors contribute the rotational speed of the pad and the calculations become fairly intense. The 50,000 foot view... Inertia creates some spin. When the pad is applied to the paint, natural imbalances in the foam (or microfiber) are multiplied and the pad will often speed up rotation (or want to). Also, the bearing acts to transfer some of the torque of the eccentric movement to rotational movement.

If we lock the bearing, the orbital speed and the rotational speed are fixed as one. This means 4000 OPM would also equal 4000 RPM. The effect would be like an offset pad on a rotary polisher. As slip is introduced into system, the bearing allows the pad to spin slower than the eccentric speed is orbiting, creating the random orbital movement. Too much friction in the bearing can over rotate the pad and also create the motor to stall as more of the load is directly transferred to eccentric set (and then to the motor). Too loose of a bearing will reduce the ability of the motor to "drive" orbital movement and create too much pad stall.

A more powerful motor, that spins at the same speed, with no additional friction in the bearing will not allow for more pad rotation. However, a more powerful motor, with a carefully tuned bearing, will allow that motor to drive more of the movement (instead of relying on things like centripetal force and inertia alone).

[Todd@RUPES]

If pad rotation on a long throw isn't that important, why did Rupes make the Mark II version, which its sole purpose was to increase pad rotation?

The sole purpose of the Mark II wasn't too improve pad rotation, although it was a focus of course. This is because rotation benefits the process, it just isn't necessary.

To Jason's defense, that video was shot days after he started with RUPES, and was in Italy for his initial training. However, if we want to get caught up on words, the exact quote is "so your rotation on the pad stops and your performance gets diminished a bit, both with cutting and finishing."

The words we use with Mark II, because of the additional torque of motor and additional tweaks to turn that torque into rotational force, is that the Mark II is less technique dependent. It allows a greater variety of users of different experience levels and backgrounds to do a more effective job in less time.

There are plenty of spots of a car where I have polished them without pad rotation. I do this every day. However, given the option, I would rather have pad rotation (even if it is a slow rotation) to take full advantage of the benefits a random orbital offers.

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd any info on pricing yet?

Nothing yet, the Mille and Rotary have not been released.

[Mike Phillips]

This part I may not agree with so much "RUPES is lucky to have you" lol.

However I do my best.

I think it's a perfect match. RUPES is a very forward-thinking company and they attract high caliber staff and high caliber customers.

Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow old friend

I'm looking forward to working with you tomorrow Todd, for the most part you'll get to play team leader and I'll play the part of assistant.

The local car guys that attend the Tech Session at our Saturday Cars & Coffee car show are true gear-heads and they love learning!

[Mike Phillips]

Just to chime in guys....


The fact that all of us reading this thread on a car detailing discussion forum, as either members or lurkers, means we all have more in common than in differences.


Think about it for a moment...



Sometimes using a keyboard to express yourself doesn't fully or accurately express your tone or intentions...


This has been a very engaging thread about really good companies and their tools. So let's keep it respectful and professional.


Thank you ahead of time...