Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

i guess we can understand why the flex spins the way it does. i'm sure flex would of had it spin clockwise if they wanted to (or maybe not) when they designed it. if you want to the makita features on your flex (both freespin/forced modes), maybe try doing (at your own risk) what's done in the video (yvan from optimum) below. who knows, maybe it spins more effectively than the makita does...

Tried it and didn't like it. 3401 should be strictly gear driven. Interesting concept, though.

[Cruzscarwash]

maybe im missing something but why does it matter which direction it spins? I have a 3401 and many other polishers and I never felt something was wrong in the rotation. it still did the job at hand.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

It has never been said because it spins counterclockwise that it won't get the job done.


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[Cruzscarwash]

It has never been said because it spins counterclockwise that it won't get the job done.


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True but you always see people say "it spins the wrong way" idk what makes it wrong or why it even matters at all?

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[kkritsilas]

i guess we can understand why the flex spins the way it does. i'm sure flex would of had it spin clockwise if they wanted to (or maybe not) when they designed it. if you want to the makita features on your flex (both freespin/forced modes), maybe try doing (at your own risk) what's done in the video (yvan from optimum) below. who knows, maybe it spins more effectively than the makita does...

This can be simplified.

Get a 3401 backing plate. On the back of the plate, you will see that there is a set of gear teeth. Grind them off completely, all the way around. Now when you put this plate on the 3401, it is an 8mm 900W random orbital/free rotation polisher. Switch to a standard 3401 plate (i.e. with the gear teeth on the back of the plate still there) and it is a forced rotation polisher. It is not as convenient as flipping a switch or lever over, but still nowhere near as bad as removing the ring gear every time that you want to switch modes. What you are doing when you do it as per the video, or with the plate that has the ground off teeth, is preventing the backing plate from engaging the ring gear. The polisher is otherwise the same; same bolt/washer, same Flex backing plate (albeit modified).

This can be done with a Shurhold plate, as well, as it has the center hole, and I can verify that it can be used this way.

I don't use my 3401 this way, as I see no reason for it.

BTW, for those who care, the rotation in free rotation mode is clockwise (I don't).

[VISITOR]

I don't use my 3401 this way, as I see no reason for it.

i don't either but another option if someone wants to toy around with the idea. in the 2+ years this polisher (makita) has been in development, i don't see how they didn't notice the lack of rotation in the free spin mode (evident in their video) and try to improve upon it (if possible). dunno, maybe they felt it wasn't a issue/problem...

[belmontsupply]

Nice specs! I have always wondered whether my Festool RO sanders were any good for auto detailing.

Festool Rotex RO 150 (Rotary mode)
320 - 660 RPM
3,300 - 6,800 OPM
5.07 lbs (2.3 kg)
5mm Orbit
720 watts
135 - 150mm Pad diameter

Now I'd like to find out how well the Rupes UHS system works with my new "Mille"!

Mille
clockwise
5.2mm Stroke
7,490 OPM
14 orbits per rotation at 535 RPM
900 watts
motor amps ???
6.17lbs

PO5000C
Clockwise
5.5mm stroke
6800 OPM
Math comes out to 8.608 orbits per 790 rpm
900 watts
7.8 amp
6.2lbs

3401
counter clockwise
8mm stroke
4800 OPM
10 orbits at 480 RPM
900 watts
9amp
5.73lbs

Mike Phillips may you spin backing plate and count how many orbits per rotation on the PO5000c?

[kkritsilas]

I am thinking that it may be related to having only a 5.5mm orbit (sort of an over centering) vs. the 8mm of "standard" (i.e. PC7424) type polishers. I don't think anybody has ever reported that the the standard polishers were reversing their rotation like the PO5000C is doing, but I might not be correct in that. I haven't noticed it with my PC.

[ScottH]

Nice specs! I have always wondered whether my Festool RO sanders were any good for auto detailing.

Festool Rotex RO 150 (Rotary mode)
320 - 660 RPM
3,300 - 6,800 OPM
5.07 lbs (2.3 kg)
5mm Orbit
720 watts
135 - 150mm Pad diameter

Now I'd like to find out how well the Rupes UHS system works with my new "Mille"!

5000 is counterclockwise...

ScottH

[RSW]

Mike: Sure there's some measure of truth to that but it's still not that big of a deal at least in my opinion and I teach classes on how to use the rotary buffer as well as all the other polishers popular in the detailing world.

Now days fewer people use rotary buffers so it's really not a huge factor."


RSW: I've spent a lot of time in shops, both detailing and paint shops and when I show the guys who are familiar with rotary polishers the BO6040 a fair percentage of them have a hard time with it. They aren't as adaptive as you or me. Imagine being able to walk into a shop with three machines - a random orbital - a dual action forced rotation that spins the same direction as a rotary - and a rotary and being able to tell the shop owner. Here's the deal. You can hand someone with no experience at all this random orbital and the can put on wax or do minor paint correction with in and get comfortable with using a machine. Then, when they've got that down, you can hand them the forced rotation with elliptical movement machine and they'll be able to do even more correction and get even more done AND because it spins the same direction as the rotary, when they comfortable with that, you can hand them the rotary. Also, guys who all ready run a rotary will be able to use the forced rotation machine without any trouble at all.

That's a sales pitch I'd love to be able to make in the shops I go to. The response you get here, where people are trying to find a better way and are ready to try something different isn't the same as where you're going into a shop and trying to get people who are satisfied with what they've been doing to try something different. Even when you demonstrate that your way is better, faster and easier, they don't really care.

Mike: That's true but as a guy that started out in this industry using a rotary buffer and someone that's used the majority of tools it's seriously and simply not that big of a deal.

IF someone wants to learn how to use a rotary buffer how the backing plate and pad spin on any other tool isn't' going to be the deciding factor that stops them from learning to use the rotary. And from experience, using a rotary requires some level of muscle and physical condition."

RSW: I started out with the Sioux 2000 so pretty much everything we have available now is beyond easy. Variable speed with that meant hitting the trigger and letting it go, lol, so, like you, I can run any machine without a problem. Here again, we both want to figure things out and are willing to adapt. We're not average, and it's not going to matter to you or me. It's Makita's loss.








Mike: Looking forward to your write-up.


I know what's involved in creating an article and besides turning your thoughts into written words and any pictures you take, process and include, it's also important to be as accurate as humanly possible.



RSW: Here's what I think would be interesting as a way to know if the spin on an otherwise random orbital machine - say the Rupes with 21 mm of throw has a real effect. If we can agree that movement between the pad and paint is what causes correction and causes heat, then we can begin.

First: Get a nice flat panel, the Rupes machine, a foam pad, a good compound, a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer With Laser, some ankle weights, and some string.


Run the machine against the panel with just the weights pushing it down for specified time. Keep it in one spot. Then measure the temperature across the contact patch. Then attach a string to the edge of the pad to keep it from spinning and do the same thing again and measure again. Go back and forth between stopped and free spinning a few times in different spots. If there's difference in the temp when the pad is allowed to spin the free spin matters. If there isn't, there isn't. By doing it over and over, and by using just the weights to push the machine into the paint there should be a noticeable difference if there is one.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for the interesting conversation.


RSW