manufactuers orange peel

[Conman50]

Hi mike , this qusetion is about manuf. paint texture , I do have my own mobile detailing services , Ive been detailing my own cars for about 15yrs. but not on a professional level up until now Iam still learning about this wonderful career that I truly love , I have a 2009 accord and a 2011 ML350 , the ML350 we got about 2 months ago and the very first thing I did was do a polish using the flex 3401 , CCG Orange pad , SF 4000,4500 , JETseal 109 , OO-S , the ML looks great better then I bought it , but the paint texture looks a little like orange peel , Q- is this a problem that can be wet or dry sand , or manufs. paint are to thin to even try or is it good to just leave it , I like my own cars looking the best as possible ....

[Christopher.Brown]

with about 2 mils of clearcoat on average on an OEM finish it is NOT RECOMMENDED to sand and remove the orange peel.

That does not mean it cannot be done, however you are removing the paints protective layer if you choose to do so.

Almost every major vehicle on the market has peel to some degree.

[Conman50]

[QUOTE=Christopher.Brown;1011384]with about 2 mils of clearcoat on average on an OEM finish it is NOT RECOMMENDED to sand and remove the orange peel.

That does not mean it cannot be done, however you are removing the paints protective layer if you choose to do so.

Almost every major vehicle on the market has peel to some degree. Thanks Chris , I did notice when I did my Honda the OEM orange peel was a little less noticeable then the ML , thanks

[Conman50]

Thanks Chris , I did notice when I did my Honda the OEM orange peel was a little less noticeable then the ML , thanks

[Andr3wilson]

ALL paint has orange peel. It's basically how the clear is mixed (grade of clear and activator amounts and grade), spray orange peel free is impossible with our current technology (pre VOC reg could be possible). You can get close I will say, but you run the risk of running and dripping the clear on the edges (needs to be sprayed thick)

Back on track now!

You can sand OEM clear. I do it all the time (almost everyday), there are basically two approaches.

1. Sand the heck out of it with aggressive grit (1500), risk a punch thru on a low spot, and polish it out with out. This will make it pretty flat, but if CC conservation concerns you, don't. You won't have too much leeway in the future if you get a scratch or RIDS

2. Sand the car down in 3000-5000 and polish out. This is a pretty common way to go without really shaving off too much clear. 800-1500 will shave of 10-20 microns depending on how aggressive you get. 3000-5000 will be around 5-2 depending on how you sand; maybe less. At the end of the day you will have a little OP, but at the end of the day it will be a lot flatter.

3. Reclear entire car and block flat! This option is really $$$ and IMO not worth it.

If you decide to sand it is a lot of work, but you really come out with a gem!

Carpro does have OP removal pads, but I will not comment on them as I have zero expirence with, but others love them.

[Conman50]

Thanks andr3 , do you sand with a machine or hand ? Which will give you a better feel ?

[Mike Phillips]

Looks like you received some good info and opinion...

Here's my two cents...

I don't sand cars with factory paint to remove orange peel especially if the car in question is located in an geographical area of high or constant exposure to the sun.

When you go outside on a hot sunny day without any Sunscreen you've probably noticed your skin will get a sunburn. Even with a sunblock of some type with enough exposure you still get a sunburn.

Cars parked outside some or all of the time in areas of lots of sunshine are constantly exposed to the sun and this exposure takes its toll.

Clearcoat failure doesn't happen in one day, it's an accumulative effect. It happens slowly over time due to exposure to the sun and in my opinion a lack of quality care and regular care. Care meaning even simple things like regular washing and regular polishing and waxing.


Something to consider...
A smooth surface will resist corrosion or destruction better than a rough surface. Paint left uncared for doesn't get smoother with time...

What's the opposite of smoother with time?

Rougher with time.


Rough paint is more open or permeable than smooth paint and this doesn't help longevity.


In my opinion, considering the harsh exposure common daily drivers are exposed to I'm amazed and impressed at how well and how long most modern basecoat/clearcoat paint systems DO hold up. Especially in comparison of the only other paint system we've known since cars took the place of horses.


Paint manufactures have established that there needs to be a minimum of 2 mils of clear paint over the basecoat plus other underlying coatings to preserver the entire film-build or matrix of paint taking in the consideration of wear-n-tear plus corrective maintenance over the service life of the car. I've been told .5 mils can safely be removed and then if the paint is properly cared for it "can" hold up over the service life of the car. From what I've seen in my life that's pretty optimistic for daily drivers exposed to the elements 24 x 7.

It different for cars that are garage kept most of their lives. Less exposure, less damage equals longer life.

So you can dry sand or wetsand a factory clear coat finish, I've done it as have thousands of others. The issue is that all the UV inhibitors to protect the entire matrix of paint are in the clear layer. The more clear you remove the less protection is left to protect this matrix over the service life of the car.

So can it be done? Yes.

Should it be done? That's a decision only the owner of a car can make.


My recommendation is that if a factory clearcoat is going to be sanded to remove orange peel and thus create a more perfect finish with a higher D.O.I then here are some considerations the owner of said car should consider.


Are you willing to use high quality sanding products?
This means high quality sanding papers, discs or sheets. Quality sanding tools remove the peel without leaving deeper scratches. The point being to remove as little paint as possible and if your sanding tools leave deeper scratches then in order to remove them, more paint must be removed. High quality sanding tools leave in the paint uniform sanding pattern and sanding mark depth, meaning these can be removed faster while minimizing paint removal and also heat generation.

Are you willing to use high quality compounds?
Same as above, a quality compound will cut out the sanding marks and leave a polished looking finish meaning the job is almost complete while leaving the most paint on the car.

Inexpensive or what I call Caveman Compounds scratch and scour the paint. While they remove the sanding marks, they leave behind their own scratch pattern that will require more polishing or abrading to remove and this means removing more of the already thin precious layer of clearcoat paint.

Are you willing to regularly maintain the sanded finish
This is pretty straightforward, it means wash regularly with a clearcoat safe car wash and then regularly clean/polish the paint as needed to keep the surface clean and smooth and also keep the surface sealed using a quality car wax, synthetic paint sealant or paint coating.


Are you able to park the car out of direct sunlight as much as possible?
Hey if you have a garage full of accumulated "stuff" and for this reason the car is parked outside all the time then it's time to clean the garage out.


And then just to add, while the above considerations were written as to speak to the owner of the car doing the sanding, buffing and maintenance,e I'd like to point out that if the owner of the car is NOT going to do the above, then they should print this thread out and use the above considerations as a check-off list to see if the person they HIRE to do the work will be doing it in the way described above.


Make sense?

You can't take your car to a body shop or detail shop and simply assume they use the best products. The best costs more money and I've been to a lot of shops and take my word for it, you really want to do your homework on what the guy you hire is going to use or you're going to be starting a new thread about tracers, pigtails, holograms and burn-through.


That's my take....


If I'm going to wetsand a car I want to be part of the planning stage where the painter knows the car is going to be sanded and buffed and for this reason they will be spraying MORE clearcoat than normal. This means the owner of the car in most cases has discussed this with me before hand and is willing to pay the painter for these three things,

• Time - When your car is in the paint booth that means they can't move another car into the paint booth. Time is money.

• Labor - When the painter pulls the trigger on the paint gun and walks around the car that's labor.

• Materials - More paint means more money.

Hope that helps you, (the OP), and anyone that reads this into the future...

[Mike Phillips]

Here's something I wrote a few years ago... I've always thought it interesting the thread doesn't get more questions or comments posted to it especially for the information shared in post #4 and even more so considering how many people have cars suffering from clearcoat failure.


Beginning Clearcoat Failure

[Andr3wilson]

Mike raises some excellent points to consider!

To your question of sanding. If you have never sanded a car by hand before, get a machine and do it. Blocking and hand sanding takes a lot of finesse and skill to do it right. A machine (air sander is best) will work best for you. You can use a PC on speed one with no issue if you don't want to invest in proper sanding equipment (could easily ring into the thousands). Next the disc, I would only recommend 3M trizact discs. They are expensive, but there is a reason for it - quality.

Do a lot of research and have a conservative mindset when you start

[Ron Meadows]

I have a question regarding just exactly how much protection is being removed when a finish with orange peel is sanded. If were to look at a cross section of the paint you'll see high and low spots, i.e. orange peel, and all the sanding really does is remove the high spots of the paint, if you only remove the minimum amount of paint required to level the surface. If this is the case, then how are you shortening the life of the paint? All of the low spots in the paint are still at their presanding thickness......