Soft 0r hard paint why do i care ?

[Largebore]

Mike;

I just read a very interesting article that talked about the differences in polishing techniques between hard and soft paint.
Essentially that soft paints like my Jet Black BMW can be compounded very easily but where the attention needs to be spent is on the final polishing stages. If this is true can you elaborate more on what this means, especially as to what a final finishing focus would be? Should I hit the car with PO85 weekly? Nano polish then P085 on a very regular basis? 12 passes rather than 6 ?

More importantly, I do not understand why the paint hardness makes any difference at all since the paint is clear coated ? This is a really big question that I have never seen addressed. If the finish is clear coated how is the paint actually affected by any surface treatment ?

Thanks

[Mike Phillips]

Mike;

I just read a very interesting article that talked about the differences in polishing techniques between hard and soft paint.
Essentially that soft paints like my Jet Black BMW can be compounded very easily but where the attention needs to be spent is on the final polishing stages. If this is true can you elaborate more on what this means, especially as to what a final finishing focus would be? Should I hit the car with PO85 weekly? Nano polish then P085 on a very regular basis? 12 passes rather than 6 ?

• Harder paint is harder to correct but less prone to scratching from soft substances.
  
• Softer paint is easier to correct and susceptible to scratches from soft substances.

I have found the Menzerna Fine Cut and Ultra Fine Cut polishes to work really well on all paints, both hard and soft for the final polishing steps. It's a must on softer paints because they are easily scratches by the abrasives and even the pad material. That's two things and the reason I used the vague term of substances above in the bulleted list because all type of materials and substances "touch" the paint as you own and drive it.

As for how often you polish and how many passes you make when you polish that's kind of up to you and "your" expectations for your car's finish quality. Trying to maintain a flawless finish in ANY light conditions on a black car that's a daily driver with soft paint will drive you insane. Garage Queen, no problem. Daily Driver = Drive you Insane.

More importantly, I do not understand why the paint hardness makes any difference at all since the paint is clear coated ?

The clear coat IS the paint.

Not sure why people think clear coat = some type of miracle coating. It's just paint without color. I explain tis in my how-to book because I know there are millions of people that think the clear layer isn't paint?


Info Resources

Paperback




You only work on the top coat anyway so it doesn't matter what's under the top coat.

This is a really big question that I have never seen addressed. If the finish is clear coated how is the paint actually affected by any surface treatment ?

Thanks

Again, the clear layer is paint. It's just paint without color.

In the old days they had clear lacquer over a colored paint to create depth. Today we have modern basecoat/clearcoat paints that last a long time but don't confuse that to mean look good a long time because we've all seen ugly new cars in any parking lot.

Modern paints are basically plastic. Old school paints like solvent evaporation lacquers and enamels are real paints.

Watch for ANY time one of our forum members starts a thread about working on a car with single stage paint. Every time I ask the to share their experience and what they think about working on single stage versus clear coat paints?

The reason why is because almost every time the person will say they enjoyed working on "real" paint.


Good questions...

[BobbyG]

Determining what to use begins with a little testing, this is why it's important to do a test spot.

Knowing whether or not the plan of attack will begin with a coarse yellow pad and Menzerna Power Gloss or an orange light cutting pad and Menzerna Intensive Polish is important.

Removing defects is your ultimate goal and the last thing you want to do is impart additional defects by using a combination that's too coarse or aggressive right off the bat.

Paint coatings these days are very thin and will only last so long. Abrasives by nature abrade or grind down the finish and at some point you'll need a paint job once you break through the clear.

When we discuss and use the term paint we're more often then not referring to the clear protective paint coating that's applied on top of the color coat. This coat is generally tougher and harder then the color coat and contains UV inhibitors that extend the life of the color coat it's protecting...

[Largebore]

The clear coat IS the paint.

Not sure why people think clear coat = some type of miracle coating. It's just paint without color. I explain tis in my how-to book because I know there are millions of people that think the clear layer isn't paint?

ah ha!!!! I was definetly one of those that thought "clear coat" was like a protective coating.. Nice to learn something new and of value..

Thank you

I guess i gotta get the book

[Mike Phillips]

Here's an example of a thread where I strongly encourage anyone withing driving range to offer to help this forum member out...

1973 Camaro Z28 - Your chance to work on single stage paint!


Am I the only one that understand how RARE of an opportunity this is or was?


You don't find single stage paint this old in this good of shape any longer and when you do... you are lucky if you have the opportunity to be "the man" that gets to restore it.

• Clear coats get swirls - paint to work on
• Single stage paints oxidize - fun and easy to work on

I also cover this in my article here,

The practical differences between single stage paints and a clear coat paints

I've worked on hundreds of cars with single stage paints as well as conducted a number of extreme makeovers where the project car had single stage paint and below I'll outline some of the practical differences between single stage paints and clear coat paints. One of the reasons I chose single stage paint for the extreme makeovers was just to give younger detailers a chance to work on single stage paint, usually on very cool cars, this is becoming a more rare opportunity as time passes.

Clearcoat paints were introduced to production cars in the U.S.A. starting in the early 1980's and since that time the technology has continually improved to create automotive paint systems that will last a long time as well as provide a beautiful finish with great gloss, clarity and shine.

The oldest factory clear coat finish I've ever worked on was an all original 1980 Corvette and after that it was an all original 1982 Corvette. Here's a picture of the 1982 Corvette, I'm still searching my hard drive for a picture of the 1980 Corvette.

All original 1982 Corvette


Since clear coat finishes, or what's called Basecoat/Clearcoat Paint Systems were introduced and become mainstream, we now have entire generations of people that have only owned cars with what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system; they have never owned, nor worked on a car that has a single stage paint system.

From time to time a new member will join our forum and ask for help removing oxidation from their car's finish not knowing that the problem with their car's paint, (basecoat/clearcoat), is not oxidation, but is in fact clearcoat failure.

Clear coat paints, when exposed to too much sun over time and without out proper care will deteriorate throughout the entire matrix or thickness of the clear layer of paint. You can't fix it by abrading the surface because the problem isn't just on the surface, it's throughout the entire layer of paint. This is called clearcoat failure and the only honest fix is to repaint the affected panels or the entire car.

Clear Coat Failure



The primary problem most people experience with the clearcoat finish on their car is swirls. Swirls are actually scratches in the paint and besides being ugly and unsightly, they block your view of the color coat under the clear coat.

Swirls can be removed because they are topical, that is like oxidation the swirls are in the upper surface of the layer of clear paint and all you have to do is use a compound or a paint cleaner and remove a little paint from off the surface which will act to level or flatten out the surface again. See the below thread for more information.

What it means to remove swirls, scratches and water spots out of automotive clear coats


Single stage paints like the type of paint that came on a 1965 Mustang will oxidize and the problem can be fixed because like swirls, the problem is topical and isolated to just the upper surface of the paint. The way you fix oxidation is to abrade or remove just a little bit of paint off the surface to expose a fresh layer of paint or what we call a fresh base.

Top: 1965 Mustang with single stage finish. Bottom: 2009 Mustang with a basecoat/clearcoat finish.



Classic cars with oxidized single stage paints are easy to fix, (in my opinion), as well as fun to work on, (again, just my opinion).


The thing to understand is that there's a huge difference between these two types of paint systems; the good news is you can usually fix true oxidation but the bad news is in most cases once a clearcoat finish deteriorates to what we call clearcoat failure there's really nothing you can do to permanently fix the problem and restore a nice looking finish that will hold up over time. Usually you have to repaint the affected sections or repaint the entire car, or learn to live with the problem.


Single stage paints will tend to be messier because whatever color of the paint is will be transferred to all your microfiber polishing cloths as well as to your buffing pads and this worries some people. There's nothing to be worried about. In most cases, washing your polishing cloths and buffing pads will remove most of the transferred pigment but not all of it however there's nothing to worry about as your polishing cloths and buffing pads can still be used for a future detailing session.,



Here's the practical difference

Single Stage Paints
The problem with single stage paints is oxidation as they oxidize very easily. Single stage paints still get swirls and scratches however in the real world the noticeable problem is the dullness and fading by oxidation.

Oxidation Before



After removing oxidation



Clear Coat Paints
The problems with clear coat paints is swirls and scratches as they oxidize very slowly. Clear coat paints will oxidize but in the real world the noticeable problem will be swirls and scratches. When you work on your own car or a customer's car your primary goal will be to remove swirls.

Swirls Before


After removing swirls

[Mike Phillips]

ah ha!!!! I was definitely one of those that thought "clear coat" was like a protective coating..

It's understandable. I know in the past Car Sales People would tell potential victims things like this,

"This car has a clear coat, you never have to wax it"


Which is just plain ignorant or deceptive and usually both.

Nice to learn something new and of value.. Thank you

That's what AGO is all about... education. Share our forum with your car buddies, that's a win/win deal. You win, they win we win. That's the American way.

[Mike Phillips]

Okay... now how about a picture of the Jaguar in your Sig Line? This one,

1969 Primrose Yellow 4.2 XKE


Does it have an original single stage paint? Or has it been restored and now have a basecoat/clearcoat paint system?

[Largebore]

Okay... now how about a picture of the Jaguar in your Sig Line? This one,

1969 Primrose Yellow 4.2 XKE


Does it have an original single stage paint? Or has it been restored and now have a basecoat/clearcoat paint system?

It is all original, never restored. I pretty much leave the finish alone other than wash and wax it and once every couple of years use a paint cleaner. The biggest issue is keeping the rust from the floorboards at bay... I do not drive it much anymore..

[Mike Phillips]

It is all original, never restored. I pretty much leave the finish alone other than wash and wax it and once every couple of years use a paint cleaner. The biggest issue is keeping the rust from the floorboards at bay... I do not drive it much anymore..

One of the topics I covered probably three times on my TV show was how the owners of classic cars don't normally wash them because then water gets into places they cannot dry to cause rust.

Instead, I demonstrated 3 different products for doing waterless washes.

In hindsight it was kind of repetitive but so many of the cars on my show were classics that also had really nice finishes, so all we were left with was how to maintain the nice finish.


Beautiful cars... here's a 1969 that probably looks similar except it needs to be polished...

[Largebore]

One of the topics I covered probably three times on my TV show was how the owners of classic cars don't normally wash them because then water gets into places they cannot dry to cause rust.

Instead, I demonstrated 3 different products for doing waterless washes.

In hindsight it was kind of repetitive but so many of the cars on my show were classics that also had really nice finishes, so all we were left with was how to maintain the nice finish.


Beautiful cars... here's a 1969 that probably looks similar except it needs to be polished...

True enough.. I hardly touch the paint. I have some Zymol [ the cheap blue stuff] and paint clear and that is about it... Waterless... good idea... but my rust is on the floorboard and the insides of the wheel wells. Is the photo a 2 + 2 ? The back end looks bulkier than mine.
If can figure out how to post a photo I will send a picture of mine.