Do I need to use paint cleanser after polishing?

[CASH XRS]

As a personal habit, I try not to use the word stupid... not in life, not on the forum...

So I alway say and type,

Keep it Simple Simon...


My posting history is long already and I expect it to be around after I'm long gone and I want it to reflect well on me... (no pun intended)


Using a member's Posting History to find an answer

haha. I don't know Mike, putting the word in bold might be evidence of you intending the pun! hahaha.

[Mike Phillips]

haha. I don't know Mike, putting the word in bold might be evidence of you intending the pun! hahaha.

[Rix6]

If any LSP didn't last beyond their advertised durability then it would no longer have a place in my arsenal.

You said if it outlasted it's advertised durability it wouldn't have a place in your arsenal, this didn't answer that question at all.

Dave, I think you misunderstood what 2old wrote. He said if it didn't outlast advertised durability...

So, essentially he's saying that he has an expectation that any LSP worthy of being on his shelf, will outlast its claimed durability.

[2old2change]

Exactly.Thank you sir.

[Flannigan]

Ha, I can't read. My apologies for the error.

[Jomax]

As a personal habit, I try not to use the word stupid... not in life, not on the forum...

So I alway say and type,

Keep it Simple Simon...


My posting history is long already and I expect it to be around after I'm long gone and I want it to reflect well on me... (no pun intended)


Using a member's Posting History to find an answer

I must agree with you

[Ecrissman]

No. It would be redundant. P21S is a non-abrasive paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner. M205 is a Fine Cut Polish. The M205 will both remove below surface defects and clean the surface of the paint, so there's no need to use a paint cleaner after using a fine cut polish.

As for removing any polishing residue that's personal preference. You could wipe them off carefully with a microfiber towel.

You could wipe them off carefully using a spray detailer.

You could apply your choice of wax or paint sealant and the act of applying and then wiping off the wax or paint sealant will in and of itself act to also remove any trace polishing residues.

You could wash the car with a quality car wash or a detergent wash and this will or should remove any polishing residue.

You could chemically strip the paint using a product made for stripping paint or other commonly used product like IPA or MS

What you do depends upon how AR you want to get and your own personal preferences and beliefs about how important it is to get the surface clean in order for the "protection ingredients" in the LSP of your choice to bond to the surface.

Here's a few related articles...


The benefits of a light paint cleaner, cleansing lotion or pre-wax cleaner

How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding


For most of history of man as it relates to washing and waxing a car, people would wipe the polish off and then apply the wax and then move on with life. You can make washing and waxing your car as simple as possible or as complicated as possible, on discussion forums the trend is usually the latter...

Mike,
That being said, would that apply to Menzerna Super Finish which is also a water based fine cut polish?
I guess the confusion come into play when so many recommend to use some type of cleaner. In this thread it says it really depends on how AR the individual is but isn't needed. Then on another thread there is a ratio for a IPA mix, that "isn't" necessary.
The other option of using a quick detailers that usually contain a wax or sealant in them such as Pinnacle Crystal Mist and a popular Chemical Guys Hybrid V-7, which I would think would re-introduce a new layer on the surface which may change the way the LSP would behave.

Regardless of ones OCD and AR personality is it necessary?

For the last 20+ years I thought I had this all figured out I was a die hard Meguiars Professional line user. With-in the last month I began buying new products from AG and found out I don’t know nearly as much as I thought I did. I find myself questioning all of my old systems, and processes. Oh I always used final inspection or nothing at all after a polish, and just layered from there. I never found my finish laying on the floor the next morning either, just some polishing dust.

p.s. I remember back when Meguiars would send their product catalog to the house, I bought my first Porter Cable back then. Of course that was before web pages like todays. The usenet and MUDD was the "internet".
Thank You.

[Mike Phillips]

Mike,
That being said, would that apply to Menzerna Super Finish which is also a water based fine cut polish?

I'm going to guess there's confusion over

• Paint Cleaners
• Methods of chemically stripping the paint

A paint cleaner is usually a lotion like liquid to clean the surface of the paint before applying a wax or paint sealant. This idea of procedure has been around long before the Internet and products like Zaino introduced the "idea" of chemically stripping the surface to CLEAN the paint before applying a synthetic paint sealant or coating.


Methods of chemically stripping the paint are doing things like using IPA or Mineral Spirits or the host of different chemical strippers from detailing suppliers or even washing the car using some type of detergent dish washing soap to remove any polishing oils off the surface before applying "some" paint sealants or coatings.


At least I think this is where all the confusion is coming from, people are thinking that a "paint cleaner", also referred to as a PRE-WAX cleaner with some type of product or procedure to chemically strip the paint.


People are over-thinking this and taking something that should be very simple and making it very complicated.

If a person compounds and then polishes paint, there's no need to use a paint cleaner after using the polish. The "cleaning" was done with the compound and polish.

If the paint is in good to excellent condition and the person doing the work does NOT want to remove swirls and scratches, then to ensure the surface is clean, they can use a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner to clean the surface before applying a wax or paint sealant.


I hope that makes sense...

[Mike Phillips]

Here's an article that really does a good job of explaining paint cleaners or pre-wax cleaners...


The benefits of a light paint cleaner, cleansing lotion or pre-wax cleaner


What they are
Paint Cleaners are typically liquid products that contain non-abrasive chemical cleaners and in some cases also mechanical abrasives of some type, suspended in a lubricating base.


What they do
Paint cleaners gently clean the surface and in so doing, remove any light oxidation, foreign impurities, surface staining, accumulated pore-embedding dirt and built-up road grime.

When to use them
Typically a paint cleaner is used before you apply your choice of wax or paint sealant. Specifically, a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner would be used after the car is washed and dried, and if the paint needs to be clayed, then after claying the paint with detailing clay but before applying a coat of wax or a paint sealant.




Order of Steps

• Wash and dry car.

• Inspect finish with your clean hand to check for above surface bonded contaminants.

• Clay paint - If above surface bonded contaminants are discovered then use detailing clay to clay paint, if paint is smooth an glassy feeling you can skip claying.

• Clean Paint – Use a Paint Cleaner to gently massage the paint and restore a clear, clean surface.

• Seal Paint – Use a premium quality wax or paint sealant.

If I clay first do I still have to use a paint cleaner?
Yes. Detailing clay is most effective at removing above surface bonded contaminants but the use of detailing clay doesn’t automatically mean the clay will remove all of the other problems affecting the clarity and cleanliness of the paint.

Mike’s rule if thumb
Anytime the paint on any car is neglected enough that it needs to be clayed, then chances are very good that it also needs to be cleaned. The two most important steps that will have the greatest effect on the end results when restoring neglected paint are the claying step and the paint cleaning step. They are both equally important and to skip one and only do the other would be to short your car’s paint from reaching it’s maximum potential and short yourself by leaving a little shine on the table… so to speak…


How to use them?
Paint cleaners are generally formulated and targeted at people still working by hand although some can be used by machine. Always read the directions for application recommendations and follow the manufactures recommendations as they know their products abilities and limitations best.

By Hand

• Always work clean

• Use a clean, soft foam applicator pad, I really like these.

• Work on a cool surface in the shade

• Work a small area at a time, about 8" to 10" squarish or so...

• Use an "ample" amount of product, don't under-use and don't overuse to the point that you hyper-lubricate the surface but use enough to keep the surface lubricated throughout the process. I would use a teaspoon to a tablespoon of product, usually a tablespoon's amount to start with because your pad is dry when you start and some of the product is going to go into the pad, and after breaking in your pad then cut down to about a teaspoon's amount of product.

• Hold your hand flat to the pad, not vertical, the idea is to not put pressure ONLY on your fingertips but over the face of your fingers to avoid Fingermarks

• Spread the product out over the area you're going to work

• Work the product for about a minute, don't work till the product is dry, but it should go from an opaque film to a clear film

• Wipe off before residue dries

• When you move on to a new area overlap a little into the previous area

By Machine
For machine applications, normally you would be using some type of dual action polisher, for example the most popular polishers on the market today that are safe and easy to use on delicate clear coat paints include,

Porter Cable 7424XP
Meguiar’s G110v2
Griot’s Garage 6” ROP
Flex 3401 VRG
Cyclo Dual Head Orbital Polisher


For use with any of the above tools, you would want to,

• Work on a cool surface in the shade

• Use an ample amount of product, don’t under use and don’t over use the product.

• Use a soft polishing pad on a low to medium speed

• Make 4-6 Section Passes

• Work a small section at a time, no larger than 2 foot square and usually a little smaller is better

• Wipe-off residue after working each section

• Overlap a little into the previous section when starting a new section

• Maintain pad rotation but only apply light pressure.

After cleaning your car’s paint either by hand or machine and wiping all the leftover residue off, the paint is now ready for application of your favorite wax or paint sealant.

The benefits to using a paint cleaner

• Removes sub-surface and pore-embedding stains that washing and claying will not remove and your eyes cannot detect.

• Removes or improves fine swirls, scratches and other minor surface defects like water spots and etchings.

• Maximizes surface smoothness which maximizes gloss and shine.

• Restores optical clarity to clear coats so your eyes can see the true color underneath.

• Restores the full richness of color to single stage paints.

• Cleans the surface of any impurities that cold block or hinder the protection ingredients from bonding to or adhering to the paint.

• Helps your choice of wax or paint sealant to last long and thus protect longer because it can bond better.

• Helps your car’s paint to look better over the service life of the car.

• Maintaining your car’s appearance protects your investment.

Paint Cleaners are easy to use and provide some of the biggest gains in creating a show car shine from your time, money and efforts.


My comments...

I often get asked,

Which paint cleaner is the best?

The answer is everything Autogeek carries is top quality so you can't make a wrong choice, but here's one way I look at it...


Synergistic Chemical Compatibility


In simple words, I tend to be a system guy, that is I will tend to use all products from a single manufacture using a system approach. Here's how this works...

The chemists that formulate the first step products, since they know what's in them, they are better able to formulate the follow-up or next step products so there's a synergistic chemical compatibility. Using one product designed to be used after the results of the previous product is a system approach.

For example, if you're going to use Pinnacle Souveran Paste Wax then use the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion. If you're going to use the Wolfgang Fuzion, then use the Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer, and so and so on...

I use a lot of different product lines so I don't limit myself to just one manufacture, but when I'm polishing paint, I will tend to stay within a single brand for that specific project just for the Synergistic Chemical Compatibility factor.

Lots of detailers and enthusiasts like to mix and match when they detail and that's also perfectly acceptable, I call that... freestyling...



Further Resources
The 2 primary benefits of using detailing clay to clay paint
The Benefits of using a Car Wax or Paint Sealant




Paint Cleaners at Autogeek.net
Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion
Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer
3M Scratch Remover
Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite Cleaner Glaze
Dodo Juice Lime Prime Pre-Wax Cleanser Polish
Duragloss PreCleaner
1Z Einszett Paint Polish
Four Star Ultimate PreWax Cleanser
Griot's Garage Fine Hand Polish
Liquid Glass Pre-Cleaner
Meguiars SCRATCH X 2.0
Meguiars SwirlX Swirl Remover
Mothers California Gold Pre-Wax Cleaner
Mothers California Gold Scratch Remover
P21S Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleanser
Poorboy's World Professional Polish
SONAX Premium Class Paint Cleaner
SONAX Paint Cleaner

[Mike Phillips]

Here's another related article,


Word Definitions - Compounds, Polishes, Glazes, Paint Cleaners and Waxes