Ceramiclear swirls

[jerber1]

2007 E350 Pewter Metallic silver with ceramiclear slight swirls. So, I used a DA polisher at speed 5-6 equipped with an polishing pad and Blackfire SRC compound ...nothing, no swirl removal. Next, I used the orange cutting pad and SRC compound at speed 6, better, but still swirls. My question is: I was looking at Menzerna compound/polishes. What do you think about the fg400? Or would you recommend a better Ceramiclear swirl/defect remover from Menzerna? Thanks alot!!!

[Vivant511]

It's an insanely hard clear isn't it? I think your choice of FG400 coupled with a MF cutting pad will do nicely for swirl removal. I had pretty good results with FG500 (we don't get 400 in Australia) and CarPro purple microfibre wool on a DA

[Tato]

Insanely hard clear is an hypothesis, how many passes you made?

SRC Compound, orange pad and speed 6, pressure and slow arm speed (pad spinning all the time) is likely to remove many swirls in (almost) any paint, even if it take longer in some cases...

If you'd like to try FG400, it's a fabulous product, however, I'm not sure it'll be too much more aggressive than the compound you already have.

The MF discs are a good suggestion, what size of pads are you using?

Let us know,

Kind Regards.

[Mizzoutiger]

For my Audi ceramiclear, I love Menz FG400 on 5" lake country hybrid power finish orange pad 5 Inch Hybrid Power Finish Orange Pad (Single). It's DAT, so allow to break down and work 6-8 passes. That said, be aware of Mike's caution on ceramiclear to use least aggressive product/process.

[haris300]

Insanely hard clear is an hypothesis, how many passes you made?

SRC Compound, orange pad and speed 6, pressure and slow arm speed (pad spinning all the time) is likely to remove many swirls in (almost) any paint, even if it take longer in some cases...

If you'd like to try FG400, it's a fabulous product, however, I'm not sure it'll be too much more aggressive than the compound you already have.

The MF discs are a good suggestion, what size of pads are you using?

Let us know,

Kind Regards.

+1 for slow dedicated passes and keeping the pad rotating. Have you made a visible mark on your backing plate to ensure the polisher is rotating the pad and not vibrating during correction? A microfiber cutting disc may give you little more "bite", but proper technique paired with your current pad and compound should yield decent results (even with ceramiclear). I'd say give it another go with your current setup before jumping on any new products.

Another thing to note:

I get the best results correcting finishes like ceramiclear when my polishing pad is cool. Friction creates heat, and detailers don't like heat while polishing. Often times we forget to let the pad cool down (this can also lead to premature pad failure). The backing plate can also hold quite a bit of heat between your pad and the plate itself. I like to remove my pad from the polisher once in a while to let the heat dissipate.

Let us know whatever route you decide to take and how it comes out.

[Mike Phillips]

Insanely hard clear is an hypothesis,

I think paint hardness is a very confusing topic for most people especially if they are new to machine polishing.

I explain how to determine hard paints from soft paints in my how-to book.

My personal experience is not only do I NOT find Mercedes-Benz Ceramiclear paints to be hard but actually right where you want them to be and that's middle of the road.

I find they correct easily in most cases with a medium cut polish like the Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover.

I also think that once one person typed on a forum they found Ceramiclear paints to be very hard the urban myth began and now it won't go away.

slight swirls.

So, I used a DA polisher at speed 5-6 equipped with an polishing pad and Blackfire SRC compound ...nothing, no swirl removal.

My guess is this is probably technique related to too large of a pad that's not rotating well.

Two questions...

1. What size pads are you using?

2. Did you mark your backing plate you you're eyes can easily monitor pad rotation. IF the pad is NOT rotating you are not doing anything.


Mark Your Backing Plate - Makes it easy to see Pad Rotation


Anytime you're trying to remove tings like swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you want to see the pad rotating while you're applying firm downward pressure.

To make it easier to see if the pad is in fact rotating, here's tip, place a black mark on the back of your backing plate. This will make it easy to visually see if the pad is rotating.

Like this,

[jerber1]

Im using a lake country 6.5 orange pad. yes i marked it to watch rotation

[Mike Phillips]

Im using a lake country 6.5 orange pad. yes i marked it to watch rotation

The 6.5" pads are about an inch and a half thick, that's a lot of foam to rotate especially after the pads starts to become wet.

Pay attention as you're buffing and you'll notice any size foam pad rotates better when the foam is dry. As you work around the car the foam will start to become wet with product that is going into the inside of the foam pad. This is called

Pad Saturation

Wet pads don't rotate as well as dry pads. This is where it's handy to lots of pads so you can switch to a clean, dry pad after every panel or so.


As long as you see good pad rotation with firm downward pressure the next thing to do is make sure you're move the polisher very slowly over the paint. Most people move the polisher too fast.

Also don't try to work a larger area, work an area about 18" to 20" squarish.

Most directions for using any DA polisher say to work a 2' by 2' area. This is TOO LARGE for these types of tools.

If you haven't already, read through the below, it's my troubleshooting guide for DA polishers. People should read this BEFORE they ever turn on the polisher to make sure they avoid all the common mistakes. Should be a print out included with every DA polisher sold with a link back to AGO for reference.



DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide


Tyler, age 15 removing swirls using a Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher



When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

• Removed paint

• Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often...

How to clean your foam pad on the fly


Down the road, switch over to 5.5" thin pads and get a 5" backing plate. You'll get better results faster with thin pads.

Thin is in...


At least when it comes to the Porter Cable type polisher. When it comes to direct drive like Flex 3401 or Rotary buffers it doesn't matter and thicker is usually better.

[jerber1]

Cool. thanks for the feedback guys

[Tato]

Dear Mike,

Sorry if my answer was misunderstood, I've typed something 'hard paint' related just to comment on the message above mine,

I plentiful agree with everything you said about ceramiclear, I just wanted to be brief. You're Right, and they are not only polishable but also a pleasure to work on because you can 'feel' it's a quality paintwork.

It's an insanely hard clear isn't it? ...

I think paint hardness is a very confusing topic for most people especially if they are new to machine polishing.

My personal experience is not only do a NOT find Mercedes-Benz Ceramiclear paints to be hard but actually right where you want them to be and that's middle of the road.

I find they correct easily in most cases with a medium cut polish like the Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover.

I also think that once one person typed on a forum they found Ceramiclear paints to be very hard the urban myth began and now it won't go away.

My guess is this is probably technique related to too large of a pad that's not rotating well.

Two questions...

1. What size pads are you using?

2. Did you mark your backing plate you you're eyes can easily monitor pad rotation. IF the pad is NOT rotating you are not doing anything.

Your answer was (like always) perfect, very complete.

However, I've suspected a '6.5" pad issue' as well minor technique adjustments, in my comments just after:

*how many passes you made?
*what size of pads are you using?

Let us know,

Im using a lake country 6.5 orange pad. yes i marked it to watch rotation

I would suggest you to pick up a 5" backing plate and 5.5" pads, after all, but reading the complete Mike Phillips answer above is the best thing for you to do right now.

Although you may be able to work using your 6.5" pads on your DA, it'll just take more time and not be the optimal way to do it.

Kind Regards.