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  1. #11
    Super Member builthatch's Avatar
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    the good thing is usually it occurs on upper surfaces that are flat. obviously, this is because they take the most beating from the sun and atmosphere, and being horizontal allow things to sit and attack the paint. if it's a hood or trunk, it is an isolated piece and doesn't have to be blended as long as you have a competent pro handling the paint system. roofs are a different story for some cars since the c pillar can run down into the rear quarter. this isn't always true, of course, as many cars have roof moldings that make the roof essentially an isolated square, with a window molding to the front, a window molding to the rear, and a roof molding on each side.
    '09 Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG / '14 Audi Q5 3.0 S-Line / '99.5 Pathfinder SE

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  2. #12
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Mike - in talking about clear coat failure - is there any way to prevent it?Do the various high quality waxes and sealants we discuss here stave off the failure or are we only prolonging the inevitable?

    I have a Honda in perfect shape after 3 years but feel it might be like cancer in a family's genes - am I predisposed to get it later on? I'm keeping this car....
    Glen -

  3. #13
    Super Member Marc08EX's Avatar
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Hi Mike,

    I would like to contribute to this thread. What do you think of these pictures?





    The pictures look similar to the Saturn you posted in your original post. At the time I polished the car, it took 3 section passes to clear it up with M83. When I saw the car a year later, the CC eventually failed - it was peeling.

    Would you consider this the beginning of CC failure?

    Original Thread:
    What do you guys think about this one? (Results are in!)
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  4. #14
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by glen e View Post

    Mike - in talking about clear coat failure - is there any way to prevent it?

    There's only three people that I've ever spoken to that are knowledgeable about clear coat paint technology and what causes them to fail, these would be,

    1. Dr. David Ghodoussi
    2. Claude Sevigny
    3. Prefers to remain anonymous




    The primary causes of clear coat failure are,

    1. Exposure to UV light, the closer to the sun the more damaging the effects, this means geographical locations nearest the equator.

    2. Too thin of a top coat - Top Coat = the clear layer of paint.

    3. Neglect and extreme neglect of the top coat.

    4. Using harsh chemicals and incorrectly using abrasive products.

    5. Swirled and scratched paint - Swirls and scratches in the paint open the paint up allowing corrosive elements to more easily deteriorate the paint faster.




    You can only control a few of the above factors so do the best you can with what you do have control over.


    When it comes to item #2, I spoke with Dr. David Ghodoussi about this and he shared some VERY INTERESTING information.

    First, some of you probably don't know this but Dr. G as a part of his work background has worked for a number of Paint Manufacturers. These would be the paint companies that provide paint for the OEM and Refinishing industries.

    He told me when he was working on creating clearcoat paint technology, this would be back in either the late 1970s or into the 1980s, they of course did TESTING. They found that less than 2 mils of clear paint over the basecoat would lead to pre-mature paint failure.

    Simply put, with less than 2 mils of clear, there wouldn't be enough paint overall to hold-up over time. It's simply not enough "substance" to withstand exposure to sun rays and the elements.

    They found that at least 2 mils were needed to provide enough substance to create the final matrix of paint, that is the e-coat, primer, basecoat and clearcoat - that this amount of film build could and would hold up to the elements.


    THIS IS WHY CARS GET AT LEAST 2 mils OF CLEARCOAT AT THE FACTORY. NO MORE. NO LESS



    Now I'm not an expert at car manufacturing, but I know that to spray MORE PAINT on a GRAND SCALE (that's what car manufacturing plants do, build cars on a huge scale), that spraying more paint means more gallons or tons of paint being sprayed and this equates to more money and also more time for the paint application process.

    So my educated guess is, car manufactures could spray more paint but they don't, the spray "enough" paint for the paint to hold up for normal wear-n-tear and that's it.

    Paint the car and send it on down the line for further assembly.

    This is why it's safe to say, when it comes to the factory finish on a modern car, the clear layer of paint is approximately 2 mils. It might be more... hopefully not less. But when we the detailing community work on our own cars or someone else's car, we should be knowledgeable about the thin aspect of factory paint and this is the reason for the sage advice,

    Use the least aggressive product to get the job done



    Now this is totally different when you go to your local body shop and get a CUSTOM paint job. If you're getting your favorite toy painted with a custom paint job, the painter will tend to spray a thicker layer of paint than you'll get with an OEM finish.



    The only rant anyone ever sees me go on is when I rant about car manufactures not putting more clear paint on their cars at the factory level.

    In a perfect world, at least companies like Ford, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Nissan, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc. should provide their customers the option to order their car with an extra coat or two of clear paint instead of the cover coats that are the industry norm.



    Quote Originally Posted by glen e View Post

    Do the various high quality waxes and sealants we discuss here stave off the failure or are we only prolonging the inevitable?
    Nothing outside of a garage or carport will block 100 percent of everything that will attack your car. If you're into vinyl wraps that would be a way to protect the paint but you wouldn't actually see the paint.

    Dr. David Ghodoussi has a product called Optimum Car Wax which uses a patented UV protection ingredient and process that offers the same UV protection as the UV protection ingredients used in the actual clear layer of paint on your car.

    Plus, while I know most people think a spray on wax is a glorified spray detailer, this particular wax really does leave the UV protection ingredients on the surface.

    If the ingredients were part of a traditional paste wax or liquid wax, when you wiped off the excess residue you would wipe off the protection ingredients.

    Could type more on this by have other projects to get back to.




    Oh yeah... I think I touch on the above on one of our upcoming TV show episodes... not deep but I do use and show the OPT Car Wax.



  5. #15
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc08EX View Post


    The pictures look similar to the Saturn you posted in your original post. At the time I polished the car, it took 3 section passes to clear it up with M83. When I saw the car a year later, the CC eventually failed - it was peeling.

    Would you consider this the beginning of CC failure?

    Yes. The hazy appearance and the way it's starting to take on a opaque look are signs of beginning clear coat failure.


    Thanks for adding this to the thread.



  6. #16
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Note the chemist that makes Optimum products also worked on creating the resin technology for modern clear coat paints.


    Optimum Polymer Technologies




    Dr. David Ghodoussi - PhD Organic chemist




  7. #17
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    I had a customer call me, asking if I would wets and the clear off of the car and polish the color. I thought it was a prank at first, I politely declined.

  8. #18
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by RCC View Post
    I had a customer call me, asking if I would wets and the clear off of the car and polish the color. I thought it was a prank at first, I politely declined.

    That was the right thing to do because there's no way it was ever going to look good and you were never going to make the owner happy.



  9. #19
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Here's a few photo's of a dark blue Buick Regal GS having the beginning stages of clear coat failure. Feel free to use these any time you like, Mike.

    Top right, rear, near the top of the back window.




    Bill

  10. #20
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Beginning Clearcoat Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoytman View Post

    Here's a few photo's of a dark blue Buick Regal GS having the beginning stages of clear coat failure. Feel free to use these any time you like, Mike.

    Top right, rear, near the top of the back window.

    Thank you sir!


    My neighbor's black Corvette sits in full-on Florida sunshine and the black paint is turning white. Next it will start flaking off.

    I'll take a few pictures for posterity.



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