The in-between and even the last step

[richy]

The times where a 3 step process has been needed is when the paint was so absolutely terrible that the first step was removing the terrible, but still leaving light marks itself. A mid level correction followed by a final polish made it perfect. It does add a lot of time, but really, the time is being taken at the first stage.

[parttimer]

Well, I look at the "in-between" step as step two in a 3 step process then. Very seldom do I find I need to do that, after shc300 or fg400, i can follow it with 2500 on a polishing pad and be done. MAYBE, if you are doing a concourse level job you would resort to this all out effort, for 99% of the people, two step is overwhelming to them in the end results.

[FUNX650]

IMO:

-Preservation of as much of the top-coat
paint-film of any paint system should be
of the highest priority.

-With that in mind:
Unless the vehicle is going to be a "Show
Car", (and not be bombarded with all of
the contaminates a Daily Driver faces),
it is performing a disservice, to the vehicle
and its owner, to do otherwise.



Bob

[Mike Phillips]

If you have been on any forum long, you hear alot about "One step" or "Two Step" to LSP. I think recently a good number of guys are getting great results in doing this, but I think that we may be selling some details short.

Lately I have seen where the in-between step has gained a considerable amount of refinement and clarity. What I mean by an in-between step is that compound or medium polish that everyone seems to have, but not many people use.

I suspect Mike could pull up some older articles he has written about the different steps.


Just some food for thought.

HUMP

Good thread, good discussion, let me add my two cents...


FACT: Quality name brand compounds work so well today they leave the paint looking like you just wiped off a coat of wax. That is to say, properly worked, a quality compound due to the abrasive technology will leave the paint looking clear and glossy, the same way perfect paint looks after you wipe off a coat of wax.


PROBLEM: All great compounds and polishes use some type of polishing oils to lubricate the surface while the abrasives do the cutting. Without the polishing oils the risk of scouring (scouring is a form of scratching), exists and defeats the entire purpose of polishing the paint to make it look good.

Herein lies the problem with doing only a one-step with an aggressive compound and a cutting pad. After compounding and wiping off the residue the paint can look amazing. And I mean absolutely amazing. The problem is the polishing oils can be masking or camouflaging dull, hazy paint caused by

1. The abrasives in the compound.
2. The aggressiveness of the pad.
3. The paint being removed while at the same time being buffed against the paint.
4. The mixture of the compound and the paint (that has been removed) being buffed against the paint.
5. The pressure applied to the pad against the paint over time.

Even if you clean your pad after every section pass WHILE you're making the section pass there is removed paint and everything the compound brings to the surface being buffed against the paint.

If you're using a cutting pad, for example a foam cutting pad or a microfiber cutting pad, the pad itself is a type of abrasive and it will not leave as perfect of a finish as a soft foam polishing or finishing pad.


So here's the deal, while the results after the compounding step may look amazing, my experience is there are defiantly dull and hazy patches over various body panels that you simply cannot see.

If you apply a wax or sealant after the compounding step you will have furthered the masking effects with products that don't easily wash off when exposed to water in the form of rainy weather or repeated car washed. Thus you don't see the dull hazy patches. If this is your own car and you regularly wax the paint after compounding you many never see the dull hazy areas of paint. If this is a customer's car and you never see them again you don't know how they're going to take care of your work so you don't what happens down the road.


Skeptical?

All you have to do to see the dull hazy results after using an aggressive compound with a cutting pad is this simple test.


Machine compound a black car and then wash it with a strong detergent wash or in some other fashion chemically strip the polishing oils off the paint. Then move the car into into bright, overhead sunlight and inspect.


You will then understand no matter how great the abrasive technology is used in a compound, if you're machine applying it using a cutting pad along with the five factors I listed above the reality of leaving hazy looking paint is for all practical reasons... a sure thing.

You might not see this on a light colored car simply because the human eye struggles to see visual imperfections on light colors. You certainly won't see it if you don't thoroughly strip the oils off the paint and inspect in bright sunlight and how many of you do this?


The remedy?

The good news is with the quality abrasive technology being used today in compounds and polishes you can easily remove any dull or hazy areas by following the compound and the cutting pad with a secondary step. You certainly don't have to use 2 steps to refine the results of the first step like had to be done in the old days when even the best compounds on the market left the paint looking scoured.


The above is just my take.... your experience may be different so take from it what you will.

[Mike Phillips]

If you read my post above take note that I always choose each word I post very carefully. That's my writing style.

In the post above I wrote about using compounds with cutting pads and explained there are multiple factors when using this combination that can lead to scoured paint or at a minimum dull hazy patches on a clearcoated car that you cannot see as the polishing oils will mask these defects.

But what if you use a compound with a less aggressive pad? What if you use a quality compound with great abrasive technology with a foam polishing pad?


Foam cutting pads have a SHARPNESS to them. You can demonstrate this to yourself by simply drawing your fingers across a new, clean foam cutting pad and comparing how that feels to a soft foam polishing or finishing pad. You can feel the sharpness or coarseness of the foam. This is what give a cutting pad cut. (I show this and tons of information like this in all my 3-day detailing classes)


So can you do a one-step with a quality compound and a foam polishing pad without leaving dull or hazy paint at the surface level?

I think it's possible. Just like any process a huge factor is the polishabilty of the paint. And of course there's a difference between what can be done perfectly and what you can get away with.


When Menzerna FG400 was first introduced to the U.S. market I think I may have been the first to use it and post a review. If you can find a review with a date stamp before November 11th, 2012 then feel free to share it in this thread.



Here's my article. Note I use Lake Country Hybrid pads, specifically the white foam polishing pads. Also note the color. It's a light colored pinkish rose color. (forget what the owner told me it is called)


So use good judgment when deciding how many steps to do for any detailing project and remember if you're detailing for money don't do show car detailing, (multiple step process), when you should be doing production detailing, (one step process), as you'll go broke.



New Menzerna FG 400 - One-Step Show Car Makeover

[HUMP DIESEL]

Thanks Mike, Of course my post was not an end all be all to paint polishing. It is a process I use from time to time and it has worked well for me. I also work on alot more cars that are not OEM paint. That being said, the initial post was not about doing a full blown cutting step after the initial cutting step. It was meant as an in-between that usually does consist of a heavier polish and even a pad like the Rupes Yellow pad. The final step to me is typically a finishing pad, or even the Carpro gloss pad with a finishing polish.
I also wipe between like Mike mentioned, because it does hide what's going on.

Keep posting, this is good.

HUMP

[Mike Phillips]

That being said, the initial post was not about doing a full blown cutting step after the initial cutting step.

I guess this is where I'm confused. I consider the polishing process to have only one cutting step if it's used at all. So like this,

1. Compounding with a true compound. This is the cutting step.
2. Polishing to clean up any seen or unseen haze left by the aggressive cutting step.
3. Sealing the paint.

If the paint is not so bad that I need a compound then skip it.

1. Polish the paint.
2. Seal the paint.

I have compounded cars twice and it's usually because I've missed enough sanding marks in the first go-around that I need to do a little clean-up work.

It was meant as an in-between that usually does consist of a heavier polish and even a pad like the Rupes Yellow pad. The final step to me is typically a finishing pad, or even the Carpro gloss pad with a finishing polish.

In the forum world, in my classes and as I explain in "The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine" on page 92, there are four categories of abrasive compounds and polishes that any companies product can be placed into...

1. Aggressive compounds
2. Medium Cut polishes
3. Fine cut polishes
4. Ultra fine cut polishes

In fact, in my RUPES how-to book I make the comment that it's as though RUPES read my book, "The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine" and then used what they read on page 92 when naming their products. Genius.


So as long as a person is always walking forward in the process, that is using less and less aggressive products as they go from start to finish then that's the big picture for creating a show car shine.

I also wipe between like Mike mentioned, because it does hide what's going on.

I don't wipe, or wash or chemically strip my cars as I'm kind of already aware of what takes place at the surface level and move through from one step to the next step.

[Mike Honcho]

Great thread!