The Boss is Here - Menzerna FG-400 Has Arrived!

[Setec Astronomy]

Does being SMAT or DAT expose the formulation?

I can only presume that they want to stay one step ahead of the competition and therefore want to stay mum on the technology they are using. While I agree that it doesn't really matter how they get the performance, it would be nice to know whether this is a product that you can stop anywhere in the cycle (SMAT) or whether you need to complete the buffing cycle and break down the product to get said performance (DAT). I'm sure Mike will be able to tell us once he uses it how to get the best from it.

[Rsurfer]

I can only presume that they want to stay one step ahead of the competition and therefore want to stay mum on the technology they are using. While I agree that it doesn't really matter how they get the performance, it would be nice to know whether this is a product that you can stop anywhere in the cycle (SMAT) or whether you need to complete the buffing cycle and break down the product to get said performance (DAT). I'm sure Mike will be able to tell us once he uses it how to get the best from it.

EXACTLY, thank you.

[TrKent]

I can only presume that they want to stay one step ahead of the competition and therefore want to stay mum on the technology they are using. While I agree that it doesn't really matter how they get the performance, it would be nice to know whether this is a product that you can stop anywhere in the cycle (SMAT) or whether you need to complete the buffing cycle and break down the product to get said performance (DAT). I'm sure Mike will be able to tell us once he uses it how to get the best from it.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Not the performance of the product:
I am sure this product performs as good or better than advertised. As do all Menzerna products.

..The performance of the person:
It is knowing what techniques and process to use for this product to extract the product's full potential.

[Mike Phillips]

As Mike, aka Setec Astronomy pointed out, one benefit to knowing if a product is SMAT or DAT is to know how to buff the products.


SMAT = Super Microscopic Abrasive Technology

With SMAT products you can stop at any time during the buffing cycle because the abrasives theoretically never break down and thus the mechanical abrading action is theoretically the same at the beginning of the buffing cycle as it would be at any point in the buffing cycle.


Spent or used up
The problem with this "idea" is that even if the abrasives themselves are so hard and so tiny that they do not break down, at least in the way a diminishing abrasive breaks down, the medium they are embodied in becomes spent or used up, that would be all the other ingredients used to lubricate the surface and hold in suspension the abrasives plus other secret ingredients.

Removed Paint
Anytime you're abrading the surface you are removing paint and the paint you are removing acts to dilute whatever the product you're using is. Another way to say this is the removed paint pollutes or adulterates the original product. This is a negative effect in the context of an abrasive compound as you will loose cutting action at least to some degree.

My comments...
So while theoretically you could continually re-wet a SMAT product and theoretically continue to use it to infinity and beyond, (assuming the abrasives do not truly break down), in practice this doesn't work. How do I know? Because when I'm buffing out a car and the goal is to create a beautiful finish, after working a bead of product with a rotary buffer, or drops of products on a primed pad, at some point I stop buffing and wipe all the residue off, clean my pad and apply fresh product.

Maybe that's just me?

I want to work effectively with my time and that means after getting some value out of the product I'm buffing, if the section of paint I'm working is now "better", to me it's time to wipe off the residue and move on to a new section of paint and use some fresh product.


DAT = Diminishing Abrasive Technology

With DAT products the idea is that you need to work the product long enough to "ensure" the abrasives have fully broken down before stopping in the buffing cycle so as not to leave accidental swirls, that is swirls instilled into the paint from the product you're using to remove defects. This could happen because if the abrasives have not fully broken down or pulverized then this means they are still "working" or "cutting". The result would be they would still be cutting the paint and this would show up as swirl scratches.

The reality is most people tend to work their products long enough to fully break the abrasives down and in my life in the detailing world you don't see this issue as reoccurring problem. Think about it, when is the last time you read a thread where someone posted having a swirl problem and then when a solution to the problem was finally arrived at it was due to not buffing the product long enough?

Besides that, quality brands use good diminishing abrasive technology and what I've seen over the last 3-5 years is good products continually getting better and that comes from improvements in all abrasive technology.



Wrap-up...
Good discussions guys and the norm for a topic like this is to beat it to death until all rocks have been turned over and everyone has chimed in with their two cents and a forum consensus is finally achieved.

As for me? I'm looking for my next car to buff out and give this product a full test drive. I have a number of cars coming up to buff out including my buddy Ken's 2012 BLACK Challenger which is already slated for a Menzerna buff-out...


Sign-up - 2012 Challenger - Show Car Makeover at Autogeek!


Thursday, December 6th

Ken's 2012 Challenger




On Thursday, December 6th, starting at 5:00pm we will be performing a full detail to Ken's 2012 Challenger. Ken is looking to learn how to machine polish to keep the black paint on his new toy in perfect condition.



Lots of interest in the new Menzerna Color Lock Carnauba Wax so we're going to use it on Ken's Challenger...




So we'll for sure add the new FG 400 to this project. IF you live close by, then clear your schedule to be here. It's possible we could also do a Live Broadcast if there's any interest.

[Mike Phillips]

The performance of the person:
It is knowing what techniques and process to use for this product to extract the product's full potential.

Agreed...


Technique is everything...


My guess is that before going to market Menzerna has their ducks in a row and has field tested this using multiple tools, pads and work environments. They've been doing this longer than any polish company that's still around today, at least that I know of...


I know there's a lot of excitement about this product and as soon as it starts to get out into your hands I'm sure the feedback will start flying in...

[IID]

I've been using this product for several month's now and for a HEAVY compound,it leaves a decent finish for your last polishing step and takes out some pretty heavy paint defects....but use caution when using.Definetly want to make sure you have enough clear to polish down when using this product.
Also very minimal dusting (VERY MINIMAL)

[Setec Astronomy]

So while theoretically you could continually re-wet a SMAT product and theoretically continue to use it to infinity and beyond, (assuming the abrasives do not truly break down), in practice this doesn't work.

The reality is most people tend to work their products long enough to fully break the abrasives down and in my life in the detailing world you don't see this issue as reoccurring problem. Think about it, when is the last time you read a thread where someone posted having a swirl problem and then when a solution to the problem was finally arrived at it was due to not buffing the product long enough?

I guess you're right, Mike (although I can remember people having problems with rocks-in-a-bottle compounds like SSR3, but it's been a long time). I guess since most of us have been so impressed with the overall performance of the SMAT products, as originated by Meguiar's, we just want to know when new products have this "goodness" in them.

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for chiming in...

I've been using this product for several month's now and for a HEAVY compound,it leaves a decent finish for your last polishing step and takes out some pretty heavy paint defects....but use caution when using.

Definitely want to make sure you have enough clear to polish down when using this product. Also very minimal dusting (VERY MINIMAL)

And there you go... sounds like a winner already...


p.s.

It rained pretty hard here today so my buddy didn't want to drive his car. I don't blame him, it's a 1964 black Catalina that he's owned for 31 years.

I'm guessing it's been repainted using a basecoat/clearcoat paint system and I'm also going to guess it has swirls and scratches. He said if it's not raining on Monday he'll bring it over and Nick and I will go out into the garage and make a video showing you what this product will do.


I have another 1957 Chevy to work on and I might give it a try on this car's paint too...

So stay tuned...

[us6krums]

Hey Mike, I will drive down a dark blue car with a lot of watermarks!

[Scarelane]

I just read a review of this product on a GTI forum I belong to. Here's the link: Product Showcase: Menzerna Fast Gloss 400 - VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com

They fix up a black BMW after being beat up by Hurricane Sandy.

Note: Admins - if it's not "legal" to post to a thread on another forum like this, please delete.