Why can't I get out M101 haze?!

[jltorro]

Hello everyone! Long time lurker of this forum and I've learned a lot and finally got the confidence to try my hand at paint correction. First couple projects went well, but this one has been tough. I have a black 04 Yukon that was in bad shape. Old rotary holograms, scratches and swirls everywhere. I have the Meg's MF 5" pads on a DA and tried the D300 on a test spot. Moved up to m101 and it worked great! Amazing how quickly that removed nearly all of the defects. Only problem is it did leave behind what I assume is the expected DA haze. Very fine new circular 'swirls' all in a uniform pattern caused by my hitting it with the 101. Pretty sure I did it right as I washed and clayed, started with new pads, cleaned the pads after every section with a brush, lubricated with detail spray as needed. I expected to have to follow the m101 with a polish, but nothing I have is working! I spent a good couple hours on a new test spot trying to figure out how to get the haze out. Everything I have seemed to either not get it out or I guess cause hazing of its own that also wouldn't come out. Here's everything I have now that I tried in almost every possible order on the finishing and cutting pads:

M101, D300, Ultimate Compound, D301, SwirlX, Fine Cut Cleaner, Ultimate Polish

Even D300 followed by D301 didn't really improve the results! Do I need m205? Foam pads? Something else? Any tips are appreciated!

[cardaddy]

Welcome to the world of hard GM paint.

Welcome also to "micro-marring".

So you're saying you don't have any foam pads? (As in only the microfiber cutting and finishing pads?)

You'll REALLY need a few foam pads. I'd say orange and white at the very least. Follow that with blue, then if you end up with a dozen get 4 orange, 4 white, 2 blue, 2 black.

Really not sure that I'd have gone after that with 101, especially if you only have microfiber pads. Remember that you only need to use the "least aggressive method" to get your correction done. While you may not have acheived 100% correction with the first compounding step, it's possible that once you moved to the polishing step that the rest of your imperfections would have been taken care of. (Providing you were not trying to go after RIDS that just absolutely needed that extra cut.)

Yes 205 may be what you need, given the right pad, machine speed, arm pressure,
arm speed. You can also check out D302 polish (which has more cut than D301 "Finishing Wax") although it was released LONG after D300 & D301. Both 205 and D302 can actually make that GM paint look pretty darned good.

You can also get GREAT results (while being perhaps much easier to work) with either FG400 or IP1500 pulling out the micro-marring. Doesn't mean that you wouldn't need 2000 or 2500 to finish it down with though.

This is why I've always said to tape off the hood into 6 areas. Area 1 & 2 would use the same compound, same machine speed, arm speed, arm pressure, and SAME amount of section passes. (I'll typically just use 4 in the testing phase, although at the end it may take 6~7.) The only difference between area 1 & 2 would be one with a heavy cut pad, the other with a lighter cut pad.

Then for areas 3 & 4 it'd be switch to another compound, and again all things being the same other than 2 different pads.

Finally for areas 5 & 6 it'd be some sort of method based on what happened in the first 4 test areas. That could be more pressure, (always use the same arm speed NO MATTER WHAT) combined with a little different machine speed, and even more section passes. Or it could just be yet another compound. Remembering not all compounds work on all paints, with all methods/techniques.

Thing is, the more test spots you do..... the better handle you'll have on what 'works' and what doesn't.

As much as I hate to say it, if you have bad micro-marring at this stage...... You're likely to end up doing a 3-step to get it where you really want it. Not great news if you're doing production work, but when working on your own vehicles it's actually more fun if you ask me.

Being as you already have the micro-marring problem you'll need to just tape off your areas to figure out what'll fix it. Remember, use the least aggressive method.

If needed (and I highly suggest you do this) write everything down. Keep up with what you do, what you use, what the machine speed is, arm speed (less than 2" per second), arm pressure, PAD, and PRODUCT. It's fine to work an area 4 times, do a clean panel wipe, INSPECT with a good light, and only THEN go back in for 2, 3, even 4 or 5 more section passes.

FWIW I'd *NOT* suggest a panel wipe of only distilled water and alcohol! You can make an excellent panel wipe with Megs D114 and alcohol. Or, get a bottle of Eraser. both will have far better lubricity than *just* alcohol and water.

Also FWIW you don't really need to do a panel wipe after compounding or polishing when applying a sealant, (only for coatings). But for 'inspection purposes' you DO need to do it to keep up with the "process" along the way.

[The Guz]

I agree with everything that was said up above. You should have some foam pads and M205 would be a better option than ultimate polish. As stated D302 is also available if you wish to stay within the microfiber system. You may want to invest in the new Meguiar's foam pads

Meguiars 5 Inch DA Foam Discs

I'm surprised D300 didn't work well for you. I find D300 to work very well on GM hard paint.

[The Critic]

M101 on a medium foam pad should knock down the haze to a minimal level.

[allenk4]

There is nothing exceptional about your paint on this vehicle

You should be able to effectively remove all swirls and scratches with the Megs DAMF Cutting Pads and your DA

It may be helpful to revisit Mike Phillips' work to make sure you are not missing something technique wise:

Dual Action Orbital Polisher Guide: how to remove swirls, scratches, & oxidation with an orbital buffer. Porter Cable 7424, foam pads, backing plate,

You describe the defects left behind as, "Very fine new circular 'swirls' all in a uniform pattern caused by my hitting it with the 101". This may not be DA haze at all. This pattern can be caused by a DAMF pad that is not clean enough.or is being run at too high of a rotational speed (Megs suggests 4.5 on a DA)

Use a fresh pad after every three panels. Clean on the fly with compressed air if available or a pad brush after each 2'x2' section

Not all paints can be finished out with MF pads, you may need foam

Whatever is left behind by the compounding stage should polish out without difficulty using Ultimate Polish and a foam finishing pad (grey, black, been or blue)

[Loach]

I agree with the above. I would recommend an assortment of foam pads to add to your lineup. You have a great arsenal of compounds and polishes that should be able to leave you with an excellent finish. You just have to now match them up with the right pad selection. I almost exclusively work with foam pads with my rotary and DA polisher tag team, that's how effective they are as a pad choice.

[jltorro]

Wow, thanks for the great responses guys! Cardaddy - Yeah I have a few foam pads but they are cheap and fall apart and don't seem to do much (Warrior?). I will have to get a more complete set of the pads you mention. I was hesitant to use m101 since it really does feel like liquid sandpaper, but yes there was a good amount of RIDS to deal with along the sides from some unruly bushes. It is MUCH improved overall from where I started, but not where I want it and will go through however many steps needed to correct. This paint has been neglected for years so there shouolld be plenty of clear coat to practice on lol. Maybe i could have been more selective on where I used the 101 vs my other compounds. I did a test spot, but not nearly as thorough as your process. I will have to try sectioning off the hood and writing it all down.

alle4k - Thanks, you might be right. I'm too new at this to know the difference for sure, very well could be from too high a speed/too much pressure. I started on 4 but it wasn't spinning well due to my pressure so I bumped it up to 5. I expected to have to finish it out with a polish so I guess I assumed it was normal hazing caused by an aggressive compound rather than possibly my technique.

I will get the new foam pads and a few of the above recommended polishes. Since the polishes I do have seem to not cut through the marks I left, m101 on a medium foam pad as The Critic suggested sounds like it could be a possibility as well. Time to test! I will try to get some before and after pics when I find the right combo and let you know what worked (hopefully I can get it to work!). Thanks again guys!

[The Critic]

Usually the quickest way to get rid of heavy DAs haze/micromarring is to use the same product again, but on a medium foam pad. If you don't have any foam pads, you can try D302 on a finishing disc.

[jltorro]

This seems to make sense to me. Probably one of the only things I didn't try was 101 on the finishing disk instead. That will be one of my first test panels for sure.

[cardaddy]

...... This pattern can be caused by a DAMF pad that is not clean enough.or is being run at too high of a rotational speed (Megs suggests 4.5 on a DA)

Use a fresh pad after every three panels. Clean on the fly with compressed air if available or a pad brush after each 2'x2' section

Not all paints can be finished out with MF pads, you may need foam.

Kyle.

Using a DA that's running too fast ESPECIALLY with microfiber pads may indeed have ended up causing 'pig tails' more so than micro-marring. (Photo's would help.)

The highlighted (in red) section above however doesn't work for me. Trying to use microfiber pads with only a brush just doesn't work. Without air, LOTS AND LOTS of AIR you're really looking for trouble. All the instruction I've ever seen, witnessed, been a part of, or even in videos by Meguiar's or Mike Phillips say use air. I'm sure you already know that though. Just don't want a new user to think that cleaning on the fly is acceptable with microfiber pads.

And YES, I also agree that finishing down with a microfiber pad can't be done on all paints. (Very few from what I've seen in fact.)

To the OP:

As I mentioned above, (and forgot with you) was that you might indeed have pig tails.

Meguiar's has very specific instructions on what OPM (machine speed) to use when using their Microfiber Correction System.

For instance:

Cutting Pad with Correction Compound (D300) calls for an OPM of 4800.
OPM=Orbits Per Minute
On the GG6 that is between 3.5 & 4.0. (3=4220 - 4.0=5080.)

Finishing Pad with Finishing Wax (D301) calls for 3800 OPM.
On the GG6 that is right at 2.5. (2.0=3360 - 3.0=4220

I've been able to go up to 4.5 while 'cutting' on small areas, but changing the pad often is critical. You just have to be REALLY careful.

Their (Meguiar's) instructions actually call for 2~3 moderate pressure passes followed by 2~3 light pressure passes. The trick is that you MUST clean with air after each full section pass, (as I'm sure you've seen.... they mat down REALLY quickly). Microfiber pads like to work surgically clean, nothing else will do. Even though you clean with air there will usually remain enough product in the pad to continue to do a bit of work. The trick is to completely prime the pad the first time then work backwards from there. If you need it, (after cleaning with air) you can do just a small few (2~3) dots of product after each cleaning.

Also, keep up with heat in microfiber pads. The face will not get particularly warm, but the BACK, where the two Velcro parts meet will get hot enough to destroy both the pad and the backing plate! After working a panel (or half a hood) you need to pull the pad and put the back of it against your cheek or the back of your hand, if it's more than just barely warm GET - ANOTHER - PAD.

After the initial release of their pads Meguiar's had a lot of complaints about pad failure. What their engineers discovered was the Velcro itself was building up frictional heat within the hook-n-loop (backing) area. Their "system" was changed/re-designed from the ground up with a dedicated backing plate for just that reason. Since then there really hasn't been any major outcry from failing discs!

But; if you are working with foam pads... you can do 3~4 section passes even with SMAT products before even thinking about cleaning on the fly. With DAT products you DO NOT want to clean the pad that soon as you want the product to continue to break down. (Unless however you do the first 2~3 passes to get your heavy cutting done then go back with another lighter cut pad to finish it all down.)

FWIW the GG6 speeds are:
1: 2500 OPM
2: 3360 OPM
3: 4220 OPM
4: 5080 OPM
5: 5940 OPM
6: 6800 OPM