Remove bird etching

[Jaap]

Hi,

I have read through the forum and observed that the way to fix the etching in the paint is to use a compound.

I have a Volvo S40 back metallic paint. I have no machine so I will do everything by hand.

As I understand, is Meguiar's Ultimate Compound the best solution for my situation? If yes, with what cloth should I apply it?

Open to suggestions.

Thanks

[Christopher.Brown]

Depends wholly on the severity of the etching but Uric acid (the nasty stuff in bird droppings) can be deep if not removed quickly. Starting with the least aggressive method may be best. Therefore, i might begin with Ultimate Polish. It all depends on the etching which i cannot see.

A Microfiber towel of about 350gsm is simple and will easily handle a spot removal by way of hand rubbing.

Simply assign a corner and then use about a quarter sized spot for the compound on a 1" x 1" section of the cloth. Then, trying to keep the correction spot as small as possible, move the cloth back and forth in line with the aerodynamic flow of wind over your car. (meaning move it to 12 oclock then 6 oclock if looking out of the drivers seat)

Start with a small amount of pressure. After about 10-12 back and forth movements, use the clean portion of the cloth to remove the compound and check the progress. If its working but not finished repeat. If not removing anything at all, then add a tad more product and press with medium pressure.

[Jaap]

I am trying to take a picture of the stains but I can get them to show in the picture I will try again later....what is a gsm? what does 350gsm mean?

[Christopher.Brown]

. . . what is a gsm? what does 350gsm mean?

GSM= grams per square meter... to simply sum it up: it is the amount of material used to make the cloth weave. Effectively it results in the "softness" rating level of the towel [for detailing purposes].

Think of it like thread count in sheets. The higher number the tighter it woven and the softer it becomes. That's why when you go to a 'fancy' hotel the sheets feel so good.

[Mike Phillips]

What type of bird dropping etching is it?


Two Types of Bird Dropping Etchings

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Two Types of Bird Dropping Etchings

• Type I Bird Dropping - Topical Stain Etching
• Type II Bird Dropping - Fractured/Wrinkled Etching

There are two common types of damage associated with bird dropping etchings;



Type I Bird Dropping - Topical Stain Etching
Type I Topical Stain Etchings are usually only topical, that is shallow enough that they can be completely removed or at least greatly improved to the point where they are difficult to see.

This type of etching can be removed using a clear coat safe compound or polish by hand or machine. Hand removal is almost always more efficient as you can exert more pressure to a small area and thus keep your work area isolated to just the affected area. By machine you can use a Spot Repair System, again to keep the work area isolated to just the affected area.





Type II Bird Dropping - Fractured/Wrinkled Etching
Type II Wrinkled Etchings are usually too deep to fix safely. The problem is the paint fractures, (splits apart in tiny lines,), or wrinkles as the paint swells and bunches together. In both instances, the resulting defect is throughout the clear layer of paint and not topical.

Thus trying to remove it will require removing so much clear paint that you will likely expose the basecoat, or colored layer of paint which has a dull appearance. For this reason it's not safe to try to remove a Type II Bird Dropping Wrinkled or Fractured Etching.

[Mike Phillips]

Here's an article on working by hand....

Note in the first picture my hand is blurry? When hand applying a compound it's not a slow, got nothing to do all day type hand motion, you should be moving your hand at the speed of light and pressing down firmly.

The reason why is because in order to remove an etching or any type of defect that is IN the paint... you MUST remove some paint.

A slow hand speed with little to no pressure will not remove enough paint.


How to use a hand applied abrasive polish or paint cleaner by hand

• Always work clean

• Use a clean, soft foam applicator pad, I really like these,
  
  CCS Red Wax/Sealant Applicator Pads 2 Pack
  
  Because they are fairly thick so the spread out the pressure of your fingers better than thinner versions.
  
  (I like thinner versions for applying finishing waxes and sealants because then I'm not pushing hard so don't need the thickness).

• Work on a cool surface in the shade

• Work a small area at a time, about 8" to 10" squarish or so...

• Use an "ample" amount of product, don't under-use and don't overuse to the point that you hyper-lubricate the surface but use enough to keep the surface lubricated throughout the process. I would use a teaspoon to a tablespoon of product, usually a tablespoon's amount to start with because your pad is dry when you start and some of the product is going to go into the pad, and after breaking in your pad then cut down to about a teaspoon's amount of product.

• Hold your hand flat to the pad, not vertical, the idea is to not put pressure ONLY on your fingertips but over the face of your fingers to avoid Fingermarks

• Spread the product out over the area you're going to work

• Work the product for about a minute, don't work till the product is dry, but it should go from an opaque film to a clear film

• Wipe off before residue dries

• When you move on to a new area overlap a little into the previous area

Before going over an entire panel or an entire car, first do a "Test Spot" and make sure you're getting the results you want and hope for. If you can't make one small area look good with your choice of product, pad and "your technique" then you'll be glad you only worked on a small section to start with or to test and not went over the entire panel or car.

When working on clear coats by hand to actually "remove" defects, technique is just as important as your choice of product and pad, (pad = application material).

So do a Test Spot first.

Also, read the manufactures directions and follow them as the above is just a general guideline. The manufacture always knows their products best.

[Jaap]

Thanks everyone for your answers.

Mike I have already read your excellent posts and I do understand the logic to start with the less aggressive product. As I see things a polish will not do the job so I will go to Meguiar's UC or Meguair's 105 and a something to rub it on by hand.

1. Should I go for UC or the 105?
2.Christopher suggested 350gsm MF but I can't seem to find something like that on autogeek.com....could you please pin point me exactly to the product?
3. Also after the compound is done, will that part of the car be dull and need a polish?
4. Basically after I remove the etching I want to treat the whole car so next thing to do is go for the swirls. What products should I use for the swirls?

Thanks

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I had two bird etchings on the roof of new '14 ZL1. It happened while en route from AZ to CA. Couldn't touch it by hand with a compound. Machine compounding didn't touch it. I didn't trust myself, so I took it to Joe Fernandez(superior shine). He had to wet sand with 1500 grit, then finish with 2500. Etchings are GONE with very little paint removed! Can you say PRO?!?!

[Mike Phillips]

1. Should I go for UC or the 105?

Either or. The M105 is a tick more aggressive but for all practical reasons here's the deal, you're going to pour some out and rub it over the paint and either one is going to get the job done. With good technique both will work. The M105 technically would remove more paint faster and thus do the job faster but we're not talking about saving days or weeks worth of time we're talking about a few minutes.

In the time I typed the above I could have removed the stain left by the bird dropping with either product.

2.Christopher suggested 350gsm MF but I can't seem to find something like that on autogeek.com....could you please pin point me exactly to the product?

That's just a little too deep for me and I can get as deep as anyone and in most cases even deeper. I don't like to but I've been doing this typing out exact words and explaining the art of polishing paint for a few years now.

I would do what I've always and has worked fine for almost three decades and that's grabbed whatever's closest to my hand as long as it's clean.

In fact, if you look at the pictures I've already posted, it shows my hand removing sanding marks BY HAND using a simple microfiber applicator pad we sell on the AG store here....







Of course, the above pictures were to teach and show how to work by hand and that is by pressing firmly and moving your hand at light speed as the majority of people I've met in my life FAIL at removing defects by hand because they move their hand very slowly and don't press down firmly. Thus they don't remove any paint.

Except for the example shown above, the rest of the car was completely done by machine including the machine wet sanding and buffing and even waxing and this was done when the Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing Discs were first introduced. My guess is this is the first full write-up ever shared on how to do what's called damp sanding.

Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips


A thin coat of M21 Synthetic Sealant drying



After carefully wiping off M21 by hand using clean, soft microfiber towels



A few beauty shots outside...








Here's the facts jack...

In order of aggressiveness when working by hand,

Most aggressive = Terry cloth. If you use terry cloth just make sure it's quality and 100% cotton. Back when I taught people how to work by hand I would take Martex towels, and cut out section about 6" by 3" and fold them in half to give me a was of terry cloth about 3" square as this will fit across my four finger tips which is how you use your "hand" to rub out defects. You don't actually use your hand you use your finger tips.


Medium Aggressive = Microfiber anything. Autogeek sells microfiber applicator pads and if I'm going to use microfiber I use the ones they sell here, I don't really know or care what the GMS is all I know is microfiber is less aggressive than terry cloth and I want it to be clean. If it's not clean that would mean it's dirty. If it's dirty that means there must be some type of "dirt particulate" on the microfiber and if there is an you rub tis over the paint you will put scratches INTO the paint at the same time you're trying to remove scratches.

That's what I call working backwards and you always want to be working forwards in the paint polishing process.

So if you're going to use microfiber get a microfiber applicator pad or just use a section of a microfiber towel or if you like cut up a microfiber towel to make a wad of towel to hold and press against with your fingers.



Least aggressive - Any type of foam applicator pad. Foam offers a uniform textured surface completely OPPOSITE of a fiber type material which offers a NON-uniform texture, that is multiple fibers.

Individual fibers of either microfiber or cotton are a type of abrasive and these fibers will make any compound or polish abrasive more aggressive. Foam will make the abrading action less aggressive.

This is at least one of the reasons the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System uses microfiber pads instead of foam pads to create a defect removal and polishing system that can switch the archaic detailing industry hell bent on always using rotary buffer which leave holograms over to dual action polishers. It's because the fibers are needed to work with the D300 to cut or abrade the paint to REMOVE some paint in order to level the surface and thus create the visual appearance of defect now removed.

Of course it's much faster to do this with a wool pad on a rotary buffer but rotary buffers in the detail industry leaves holograms in the paint and other negative results.


Point being, foam is less aggressive than any type of fiber type applicator pad.


Lets dig a little deeper....

If fiber type materials are more aggressive than foam type materials, then when you use a fiber type material by hand OR MACHINE you increase the ability of the process to remove paint faster but you also increase the potential to leave a new type of scratch behind from the fibers themselves.

That's why you should NEVER finish out using a wool or fiber pad on a rotary buffer, not even a "finishing" or "polishing" wool buffing pad because each one of the fibers will leave a cut in the paint.

For this same reason, when "you" go to remove the bird stain etching using either terry cloth or microfiber because you will be able to remove paint faster, you might also leave some marring behind. In this case, the word marring is a fluffy way to say toweling scratches.

Do you panic? No. You simply re-apply the same product that you used to remove the bird stain etching a second time only for this second time you switch to FOAM. The foam applicator pad, because it offers a uniform surface texture instead of individual fibers will work with the abrasives to remove the toweling scratches and shampoo the surface over to be more flat.

Then you can repeat the process using foam and a less aggressive product like polish, (M205 or Ultimate Polish), to refine the results from the compounding step and then apply some type of wax, sealant or coat the paint to seal it.


Does the above all make sense?


Then just to add, this is why I've always said that while the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System is a great system, heck I teach it in all my detailing boot camp classes, generally speaking, a foam pad will always have a better chance of finishing out nicer on a WIDER SPECTRUM of PAINT TYPES than any type of fiber pad due to the uniform surface texture versus individual fibers surface.

Make sense?

I get asked a lot why I tend to use foam pads a lot more often than I use any companies microfiber pads and one of the reason why is because I tend to do mostly show car detailing, not production detailing. I know a quality foam pad will finish out better more consistently on a wide spectrum of paint types and because a lot of the cars I work on have custom paint, that is NOT factory paint that's another way of saying I work on a lot of different types of paint systems.

A paint system is not only the brand of paint being sprayed by the type of paint within the brand and then there's all types of factors that can and will affect the specific type of paint by the painter mixing it, spraying it and drying it.

And that my friend is why I always tell people to so a TEST SPOT on every car they work on if they have never worked on that specific car in the past and that's because until you do some testing you don't now how the paint is going to react to your,

• Pads
• Products
• Tools
• Technique

But I digress....

3. Also after the compound is done, will that part of the car be dull and need a polish?

Not dull, at least not normally with products like M105 and Ultimate Compound. These two products use some very amazing and hi-tech abrasive technology and that's why the really were "Game Changers" when they were introduced.

It's because they are super aggressive but finish out like a fine cut polish.

That said, in my opinion if you have high standards for finish quality then you should follow an aggressive step with a less aggressive step because polishing paint is an art form, not a grinding process.

Finishing with ONLY a compound will never look as good as finishing with a compound and a polish on the only true test of any product or process and that's black paint.

Because MOST cars are basecoat/clearcoat this means you're never really working on a "colored paint" but instead working on clear paint, what this means practically is that if what you're doing isn't making black paint LOOK GREAT it isn't making ANY COLOR look great it's just on lighter colored cars you're eyes cannot see the true results.

So each person can decide what their standards are for finish quality as some people just don't care that much about creating a show car finish on a white car and I understand that. Even I have done one-step compound jobs to light colored cars and let the wax/sealant/coating take the achieved results to a higher level instead of following the compound with a dedicated polishing step.


Since you're working on a black metallic finish I would recommend following the compounding step with a dedicated polishing step using foam and a fine cut polish. But that's just me....

4. Basically after I remove the etching I want to treat the whole car so next thing to do is go for the swirls. What products should I use for the swirls?

Thanks

I use a lot of Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and Pinnacle Finishing Polish on the cars I work on and they tend to always come out looking great. I worked with Wayne Carini and the guys at his shop and now they use Pinnacle Swirl Remover and Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish on all the cars that come out of his shop and they always look great.

Meguiar's makes great compounds, and the M205 and Ultimate Polish also work well. So pick your poison and go with it.

[Jaap]

Thanks Mike this is so informative.

The compound that I will use for the etchings, can I use for the swirls as well to do the whole car?

Since I am a beginner I thought I would use a foam and Meguair's UC. Then go for the polish. Do you agree with this?

Thanks again!