issues with PigTails

[highline1164]

pigtails are very common with the 3M hook it DA sanding discs. Sometimes the Trizact doesnt remove enough material to remove the sanding scratches that the 1500 leaves behind. From 1500 to 3000 grit is too big of a jump. I sand and buff about a car a week and have learned the process that works for me 1000 DA, 1500 DA, 2000 wet block, then Trizact 3000. Each stage removes marks from the previous. It sounds like alot of stages, but in my experience, if your trying to get that flat as glass look and not have to worry about sanding marks coming back on you a couple weeks down the road, its well worth the extra time. And the 1500 not lasting that long is normal, you will use about half a box (25 sheets) during the process of one car. Probably the reason why 3M has now come out with a 1200 and 1500 Trizact. Of course this is all my opinion, but hope it helps in your endeavor.

[Mike Phillips]

Im currently doing a full wetsand, its my own car so im using it as a learning curve.

That's a huge undertaking... hats off to you for trying to mast a new skill set.. Just out of curiosity, did you sand down the entire car before doing any buffing?

Im onto the correction stage and after 1st go over with M105 wool the paint is full of tight pigtails. i know that shouldnt be the case after 3000 if i sanded it properly.

The first thing you want to do is trouble shoot to know for certain that the pigtails are left by the #1500 grit and not the #3000

Is this factory paint? If so I'm sure you already know you need to tread carefully as the topcoat will be thin and hard.

Should i be sanding damp,

Are you sanding dry right now? Both steps?

If so, how are you cleaning the face of your sanding discs and panels?

I have friends that prefer to sand dry but they wear dust masks as you inject a lot of paint particles into the air and you don't want to be breathing this... I prefer to sand with water, it's messier on the floor but the water embodies the paint particle being removed and flows them onto the floor.

I'm also in the camp that believes you get more lifespan out of your sanding discs when you sand wet as the water will help prevent your discs or sandpapers when sanding by hand, from loading up and wearing out prematurely.

If you're dry sanding you can keep a clean terry cloth hand towel handy and hold it against the paper and then blip power on for a few seconds to agitate the disc against the nap of the towel and this will remove a lot of the build up paint on the paper and also help you to sand cleaner.

The worst problem with machine sanding is Pigtails, the worst problem with hand sanding is Tracers, it's pretty much impossible to avoid 100% and the most important thing you can do to avoid both types of problems is to work clean...

Again, my personal opinion is that wet-sanding or dampsanding is cleaner than dry sanding and this reduces the potential for tracers or pigtails.

then sand longer using the 3000.

If you're not dampsanding, the I would suggest to re-sand an area using a clear source of water, a spray bottle works very well for this and sand a new section and then inspect visually and then after buffing.

Removing pigtails, or tracers is just a matter of removing enough material to flatten out the surface WHILE not inducing more pigtails or tracers at the same time.

What speed should i be going when using the 3000??? any tips info would be great.

Are you using an air-powered DA sander or an electric DA Sander? I didn't see if or where you mentioned this?

If by air, at 90 PSIG you want to be at 3/4 to full throttle if dampsanding, I'm pretty sure dry sanding would be the same but I don't dry sand so maybe someone else will chime in if they feel differently.

If using an electric DA polisher then for major flat or flatish panels you want to be on the 5.0 to 6.0 speed setting, you want the pad rotating and you want to use a brisk arm speed, don't move the polisher slowly or stay in one place with the tool on.

Feel free to give me a call to discuss but do try to post some answers to some of the above questions in bold for other's to learn from...

[Mike Phillips]

To make it easy...

1. Just out of curiosity, did you sand down the entire car before doing any buffing?

2. Is this factory paint?

3. Are you sanding dry right now? Both steps?

4. If so, how are you cleaning the face of your sanding discs and panels?

5. Are you using an air-powered DA sander or an electric DA Sander?


Here's my cell...

760-515-0444


We'll do our best to see you though to sucess...

[uniquedetailing]

To make it easy...

Ok should of added more info when i started. This isnt the first time i have wetsanded but the first time i have used a da to sand. I am using a 3m finishing sander. The car is a 1962 Chevy impala, i painted and we have done a full body restoration, it ppg black. I layed down 3 coats of base and 4 clear. I have never done a full wetsand on a car just few panels here and there.

1. Just out of curiosity, did you sand down the entire car before doing any buffing?
Yes we started to sand by hand then thought we would try out the 3m line of disks,


2. Is this factory paint? No bc/cc

3. Are you sanding dry right now? Both steps?
When i first started i was sanding dry, lots of dust as you mentioned and yes i wear a mask. I was getting more cut from sanding dry thats why i opted for dry. I used the 3000 damp. I have now tried 1500 damp too, I am 100% sure that the pig tales are coming from dry sanding.

4. If so, how are you cleaning the face of your sanding discs and panels? i was using a microfiber to clean the disks and the same way with the panel

5. Are you using an air-powered DA sander or an electric DA Sander? I am using a 3m air sander, but i have only had it 3 weeks and it stopped working, that has put the project on hold

I did try the front fender to see what my process was going to be, and it came out perfect, I guess i need to go back and sand more cause the whole car has pig tails.

Thanks for your help


Here's my cell...

760-515-0444


We'll do our best to see you though to sucess...

l

[Mike Phillips]

Hey David,

Good talking with you today, looking forward to some after pictures when you get the Impala worked all they way through the process...

Should look like a pool of black oil when you're finished...

[johny97101]

Hello Mike,
could you please recommend what type of 1500 sandpaper are you love to use for damp sanding? With that pigtails I'm fighting all day long and it's hard to chose good product. I tested a lot of them with dry and wet method: 3m, mirka, kowax, trizact but all are pigtailing some more some less therefore I know that 100% prevention does not exist, but it's good to know the right way. I'm using Mirka electric sander- that new one looks like air sander with 2,5mm throw.

Thank you
Regards
Jan

Hey David,

Good talking with you today, looking forward to some after pictures when you get the Impala worked all they way through the process...

Should look like a pool of black oil when you're finished...

[AGOatemywallet]

Talking about buffing out the scratches. If the compound goes dry with a wool pad you can get pig tails. As you know not much work time with 105.

You do NOT get "Pig Tails" from a Rotary tool

[Mike Phillips]

Hello Mike,
could you please recommend what type of 1500 sandpaper are you love to use for damp sanding? With that pigtails I'm fighting all day long and it's hard to chose good product. I tested a lot of them with dry and wet method: 3m, mirka, kowax, trizact but all are pigtailing some more some less therefore I know that 100% prevention does not exist, but it's good to know the right way. I'm using Mirka electric sander- that new one looks like air sander with 2,5mm throw.

Thank you
Regards
Jan

Hi Jan,

I just read your PM and noticed you had one post, (the one in this thread), and I much prefer to answer and talk on the "public" forum instead of private messages.

More eyeballs can see the discussion and that's really what a discussion forum is about.

So if you don't mind I'll answer you here.

[Mike Phillips]

Hello Mike,

could you please recommend what type of 1500 sandpaper are you love to use for damp sanding?

With that pigtails I'm fighting all day long and it's hard to chose good product.

I tested a lot of them with dry and wet method:

1. 3m,
2. mirka,
3. kowax,
4. trizact

but all are pigtailing some more some less therefore I know that 100% prevention does not exist, but it's good to know the right way.

I'm using Mirka electric sander- that new one looks like air sander with 2,5mm throw.

Thank you
Regards
Jan

The 2.5mm orbit stroke length sounds like a finishing sanding instead of a rough work sander. I don't know if that's leading to the pig tail issue or not though?

One thing I know, I rarely have pig tail issues. Sometimes, but then it's just a few sporadic pig tails, not like they are everywhere in the paint.


The key to ANY type of sanding, be it dry sanding or wet sanding is to work as clean as possible.

I start by sweeping the floor. This is what I mean by working clean as possible. Of course it's important to have a clean car and clean tools and even a clean workbench to place all your tools.

Pig Tails come from one or two sources.

1. Random dirt particle trapped between the face of the sanding disc and the paint.

2. Abrasive particles that have come off the sanding disc and become trapped between the face of the sanding disc and the paint.

For both types of contaminants, the only cure is to work clean.

So if you're dry sanding without any type of vacuum extraction then you need to be blowing off your sanding disc or cleaning it on the fly with a clean terry cloth towel PLUS wiping down the panel being sanded to remove all the paint particles and with them any other abrasive particles.

If you're wet sanding, by machine this would be called damp sanding, then you also need to work clean and this means using a clean water source, like clean water in a spray bottle you can use to mist the surface with water. Wiping or squeegeeing your sanding slurry off the panel being sanded before re-sanding.

Before moving onto a higher grit disc for either approach take a few minutes to completely wipe the car down including any seams where you can open the door, trunk lid or hood to remove sanding slurry splatter or sanding dust.

You really have to approach sanding like doing heart surgery, everything needs to be sanitized BECAUSE it only takes one foreign abrasive particle to get trapped between your sanding disc to cause pig tails.

You asked me my favorite discs?

For car paint I'll tend to want to use 3M Trizact because I like to finish out with #5000 to make the compounding step faster and easier.

For gel-coat boats or pontoon boats I much prefer Mirka Abralon foam backed discs because I like the flow-through screen design for their abrasives. These also work great for paint but for the finishing step I'd have to give the wink and nod to the #5000 grit by 3M.


Don't know if the above helped much....

[Mike Phillips]

pigtails are very common with the 3M hook it DA sanding discs.

Sometimes the Trizact doesnt remove enough material to remove the sanding scratches that the 1500 leaves behind.

From 1500 to 3000 grit is too big of a jump.


I sand and buff about a car a week and have learned the process that works for me 1000 DA, 1500 DA, 2000 wet block, then Trizact 3000. Each stage removes marks from the previous.


It sounds like alot of stages, but in my experience, if your trying to get that flat as glass look and not have to worry about sanding marks coming back on you a couple weeks down the road, its well worth the extra time.

And the 1500 not lasting that long is normal, you will use about half a box (25 sheets) during the process of one car.

Probably the reason why 3M has now come out with a 1200 and 1500 Trizact.

Of course this is all my opinion, but hope it helps in your endeavor.

Nice input, thanks for sharing.