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  1. #11
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Using a hard block

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  2. #12
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanito805 View Post
    The entire car done was cut with 1000, 1500, and 2000, at times with pneumatic DA and in part blocked by hand.





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    Looks like a 1966 or 1967 Lincoln Continental - very cool car. I've had a couple of these in my classes over the years.


    At this point - because you've already sanded it - there's not a whole more you can do.

    You didn't list what sanding disc you're using?

    What sanding paper are you using?



  3. #13
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    Looks like a 1966 or 1967 Lincoln Continental - very cool car. I've had a couple of these in my classes over the years.


    At this point - because you've already sanded it - there's not a whole more you can do.

    You didn't list what sanding disc you're using?

    What sanding paper are you using?


    Sorry, I went to buy more sandpaper & stuff.

    I've been using 3M wet or dry sandpaper.

    I actually went at it again with a 1000, after confirming that the car had at least 7 coats of clear, and it's still flattening, so it's looking better.

    I'm just trying to be very conservative and that's why I wanted to hear other's experiences on this.

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  4. #14
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    I teach this in our 3-day classes on REAL cars with custom paint jobs - not demo hoods or demo fenders.


    The below pictures are from this last February. The El Camino has a brand new custom paint job. In this order, the class learned,



    1. Hand wetsanding
    2. Machine wetsanding
    3. How to use a rotary buffer with a wool pad
    4. How to finish out hologram-free - their choice of ANY brand of orbital polisher



    Pictures: February 2020 - 100% Hands-On Detailing Classes


    And more....

    Wetsanding










































    I am proud to say that in my classes - you get to work on the real deal. And my classes are the MOST photo-documented classes on Planet Earth. Go ahead and search for any other class that has more pictures showing what you get to do after you pony up to the table and pay to play.


    This way cool though. I'm sure it's a very interesting class! Old school vs Modern sandingOld school vs Modern sanding

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  5. #15
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    I've been told that what some guys do during painting the clear is to do a coat of clear, sand it and then shoot another coat of clear, sand and shoot another coat of clear. That keeps the orangepeel from getting buried in the clear.

    The 3m foam discs are amazing. Finishing with 8000 grit on a dark color makes the car shine like a mirror.

  6. #16
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanito805 View Post

    This way cool though. I'm sure it's a very interesting class! Old school vs Modern sandingOld school vs Modern sanding

    That year of El Camino has a LOT of body lines. She's fairly squared-up like the Lincoln you're sanding but for NEWBIES - teaching them to NOT sand on or near a hard raised body line is vital.

    Too easy to buff through the paint if they sand too close to a raised body line or edge.

    I teach this technique,

    The Rule of Thumb




    Looks like this after hand sanding,







    Experts can sand right to an edge or body line as long as they have a way to buff or remove the sanding marks that works for them. But when teaching newbies? The Rule of Thumb saves a lot of burn-throughs and teaches a technique that works.


    And "yes" this was another bondafide muscle car my class of newbies,

    • Hand sanded
    • Machine sanded
    • Removed sanding marks with rotary buffers
    • Created hologram-free finish using orbital polishers



    Looked like this after my class finished...




    I don't ever see any other wetsanding classes where the students get to wetsand some other guy's streetrod. It's always a practice hood or practice fender. Nothing wrong with practice hoods and fenders I used to use these too.

    My classes have simply evolved over they years, in all areas including wetsanding.




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  8. #17
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Mike, nice to see you teaching people how to use a rotary. That's a skill needed for wetsanding.

  9. #18
    Super Member 2black1s's Avatar
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by DUBL0WS6 View Post
    I've been told that what some guys do during painting the clear is to do a coat of clear, sand it and then shoot another coat of clear, sand and shoot another coat of clear. That keeps the orangepeel from getting buried in the clear...
    Here's my take as an old painter...

    There's a lot of truth and a little misinformation in the preceding quote.

    On the truth side, the paint finish will always be flatter when it is sanded in-between coats.

    On the "orange peel getting buried in the clear" part, that is a bit mis-stated in my opinion. What is really occurring with the orange peel is it is "building" and becoming "heavier" with each additional coat. Heavy wet coats during application also contributes to the "heaviness" of the orange peel. As the orange peel becomes heavier, sanding and compounding the finish flat becomes less and less achievable.

    I like to distinguish light/moderate/heavy orange peel as the center-to-center distance between the peaks and valleys of the orange peel. Light orange peel will have a tighter center-to-center distance, heavier orange peel will have a larger distance.

    Lighter orange peel can be sanded flatter than heavier orange peel... every time... no if's, and's, and but's about it.

    If the paint coats are applied too heavily, or too many coats are applied, you end up with heavy orange peel that cannot be sanded flat. It can be sanded smooth to remove the orange peel per say, but the waviness that the OP describes will always be there.

    For that reason I disagree with the general consensus that more paint is better. The only benefit to "extra" paint is that it can be sanded and compounded with less risk of cut through. But with that benefit comes a compromise in the finish quality.

    For a truly glass-like finish the paint must be applied in light to medium coats and when possible, sanded between coats. You can't just load the paint on and expect to sand it to a glass-smooth finish.

    The waviness that the OP describes, if I'm interpreting his description accurately, is from one of two things... The paint was either applied in coats that were too wet and heavy; or too many coats were applied (without in-between sanding).

    And for the old vs. new school of sanding... I'd never do the final sanding of a show car finish with a machine. It's all hand-sanding for me. And another thing I'd never do is use a hard block for the final sanding. Foam sanding pads are my tool of choice.

  10. Thanks mc2hill thanked for this post
  11. #19
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Meguiars makes some nice smallish semi flexible sanding blocks. Sand in a straight line.

    When my car was painted my painter hand sanded with a block but we ended up finishing with 3m Trizact with 3000, 5000 and 8000 with a air powered RO. I'm not sure you can hand sand as fine as 8000 on a RO. Finish looked great. Not a trailer queen car, driven regularly on the street.

  12. #20
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Old school vs Modern sanding

    Quote Originally Posted by 2black1s View Post

    Here's my take as an old painter...

    Thank you for taking the time to type our a really nice explanation.



    Quote Originally Posted by 2black1s View Post

    And for the old vs. new school of sanding... I'd never do the final sanding of a show car finish with a machine.

    It's all hand-sanding for me.

    And another thing I'd never do is use a hard block for the final sanding. Foam sanding pads are my tool of choice.
    I agree with you. For some reason, the finish results after hand sanding always look better than the finish results after machine sanding. I can see it in the surface, but cannot explain it with a keyboard.

    I think the problem for some people is that removing 100% of hand sanding marks, (I use the word marks instead of scratches, sounds better), can be very challenging. Seems like there are always TRACERS left here and there. Machine damp sanding after hand sanding leaves behind a sanding mark pattern that is more uniform than hand sanding marks and easier and faster to remove.

    I always use Nikken brand "finishing" papers for my own work and for classes. This used to be the best brand of finishing papers money can buy. They are an electronics grade sandpaper.


    Not sure what else would compete with the Nikken on the market today in the year 2020 but open to suggestions. Nikken goes up to #3000 grit





    We use the Meguiar's E7200 for a hand backing pad for hand sanding with the Nikken. Here's something I wrote back in 2008


    Hand Sanding Techniques

    Here's a few tips for how to use a backing pad with your choice of sandpaper when hand sanding.










    There are two ways to fold your paper around the backing pad, which way you use is personal preference.

    Wrapping an unfolded single sheet of paper around a backing pad















    After wrapping your paper, sand in back & forth straight lines, don't sand in circles.

    Don't hold the pad like this when sanding...



    Don't hold the pad like this when you're sanding...



    This is correct, hold the backing pad at about a 45% degree angle in
    relationship to the direction you're moving your hand.










    Wrapping a folded single sheet of paper around a backing pad.

    First fold your paper in half...



    Then fold it around your backing pad...




    This is a little trickier to master as compared to simply wrapping an unfolded sheet around the backing pad but id does provide you with a uniform flat surface while sanding.





    The other method has an edge of the paper under the sanding surface of the paper. Note that under the flat side of paper against the face of the backing pad there is the edge of the paper.

    Mike Phillips





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