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  1. #101
    Senior Member WillSports3's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
    What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
    Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
    Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
    It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
    That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
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  3. #102
    Senior Member acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillSports3 View Post
    SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
    What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
    Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
    Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
    It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
    That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
    Very much appreciated again.

    What if anything then does siloxane have to do with SiO2? Or will it only be used for creation of SiC? I ask because I’ve liked a lot of the “ceramic” sprays (IGL, Overcoat, and PBL coatings) that contain siloxane. They last longer in the bottle and they look and behave nicely in my opinion. Are these creating SiC coatings or could they be used in creation of SiO2 ceramics?

  4. #103
    Senior Member WillSports3's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    No siloxane itself is meaningless, kind of like saying sealant. Siloxane on it's own is just two oxygen molecules and a silicon molecule. However how many they stack and are put together(proprietary formulas) means what it makes. Sio2 is a simplification of a specific build up of siloxane in their different form in a ceramic product. For example cquartz uk has three different blends of different siloxane polymers. The only siloxane that produces SiC is Optimum products (that I know of).

    Best description, cquartz uk has three blends of different siloxane components that with their bonding agent and solvent carrier put SiO2 in a resin on your clearcoat.
    The siloxane blend specific to glosscoat forms a SiC coat in a resin on your clearcoat.

    The ceramic sprays dont last long due to siloxane, they last long because the specific blend of siloxane does not require a curing process the way that the siloxane blend does in a true coating.

    Siloxane is just the industry way of delivering SiO2 in a format that would protect clearcoat. It comes down to siloxane density and concentration in the formula. For example please, 7 siloxane molecules will be a thicker and stronger component than 3 siloxane molecules. In a coating, just ad a random example, you have a 12 siloxane molecule that links to a 7 siloxane molecule to a other 12 siloxane molecule, etc.
    This ends up with let's just say for examples sake, a 90 percent pure SiO2 on your paint meaning that out of the 1.5 micron thickness of coating, 10 percent is bonding resin and other polymers and 90 percent ends up being SiO2.

    Now let's take a ceramic spray. Let's just say it's made up of a link of 3 siloxane molecule components that link to each other and it's only 10 percent of the overall liquid, 25 percent is a polymer based sealant that may or may not have loose chain siloxane molecules in it to encourage it mixing with the 3 molecule siloxane and the rest is carrier liquid amd solvents. The simple fact that the spray is mostly solvent and carrier fluid (water, naphtha, IPA) is why the last longer. Looking nicer has not too too much with siloxane, not at that low concentration. That's based on glossing agents in the polymer sealant in this case.

    In the case of PBL coatings, it's the solvent choice as well as the specific format of siloxane. Difference for example, between a quartz watch face and a ceramic dish. Also the same difference between the quartz watch face and level IV rifle rated armor plates. It's all siloxane but specific siloxane build density is what makes a difference here.

    Cquartz UK uses three siloxane components, and they most likely chain together to create a certain density. PBL coatings use not as dense siloxane components (most likely) hence why cquartz UK will harden an applicator and have a thicker single application layer than PBL coating. It doesnt mean PBL protects less, just means PBL is easier to apply and is mostly likely 1 micron or less layer while UK is 1 micron or more.

    Overcoat, IGL, and PBL all use SiO2 as their protective agent or a protective component. So their siloxane blend choices will be based on that as will their carrier solvent, and bonding agent.

    GTechniq uses a proprietary blend of petroleum distillates as their main source of solvent. The reason a high spot might need to be sanded off is because it's an ultra dense layer of siloxane component to the point where it's not that it's really that harder but an actual layer is much thicker.

    You can polish off a cquartz UK high spot with a towel and your finger but not if that high spot is a quarter of the bottle poured onto your hood. Or if I was to take a glosscoat syringe and drop half the tube onto one spot. Different coating densities.

    But it's all different kinds of siloxane when there a SiO2 element. Just like it's always polymer based when it's a sealant. Each manufacturer just had their blend of either or based on their chemists execution of what product they wanna make.

    I'm by no means a chemistry expert so I could be wrong here , this is just my understanding. Let me know if you have other questions, I kind of feel like I've massively derailed this thread so my apologies.
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  6. #104
    Senior Member Coatingsarecrack's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillSports3 View Post
    No siloxane itself is meaningless, kind of like saying sealant. Siloxane on it's own is just two oxygen molecules and a silicon molecule. However how many they stack and are put together(proprietary formulas) means what it makes. Sio2 is a simplification of a specific build up of siloxane in their different form in a ceramic product. For example cquartz uk has three different blends of different siloxane polymers. The only siloxane that produces SiC is Optimum products (that I know of).

    Best description, cquartz uk has three blends of different siloxane components that with their bonding agent and solvent carrier put SiO2 in a resin on your clearcoat.
    The siloxane blend specific to glosscoat forms a SiC coat in a resin on your clearcoat.

    The ceramic sprays dont last long due to siloxane, they last long because the specific blend of siloxane does not require a curing process the way that the siloxane blend does in a true coating.

    Siloxane is just the industry way of delivering SiO2 in a format that would protect clearcoat. It comes down to siloxane density and concentration in the formula. For example please, 7 siloxane molecules will be a thicker and stronger component than 3 siloxane molecules. In a coating, just ad a random example, you have a 12 siloxane molecule that links to a 7 siloxane molecule to a other 12 siloxane molecule, etc.
    This ends up with let's just say for examples sake, a 90 percent pure SiO2 on your paint meaning that out of the 1.5 micron thickness of coating, 10 percent is bonding resin and other polymers and 90 percent ends up being SiO2.

    Now let's take a ceramic spray. Let's just say it's made up of a link of 3 siloxane molecule components that link to each other and it's only 10 percent of the overall liquid, 25 percent is a polymer based sealant that may or may not have loose chain siloxane molecules in it to encourage it mixing with the 3 molecule siloxane and the rest is carrier liquid amd solvents. The simple fact that the spray is mostly solvent and carrier fluid (water, naphtha, IPA) is why the last longer. Looking nicer has not too too much with siloxane, not at that low concentration. That's based on glossing agents in the polymer sealant in this case.

    In the case of PBL coatings, it's the solvent choice as well as the specific format of siloxane. Difference for example, between a quartz watch face and a ceramic dish. Also the same difference between the quartz watch face and level IV rifle rated armor plates. It's all siloxane but specific siloxane build density is what makes a difference here.

    Cquartz UK uses three siloxane components, and they most likely chain together to create a certain density. PBL coatings use not as dense siloxane components (most likely) hence why cquartz UK will harden an applicator and have a thicker single application layer than PBL coating. It doesnt mean PBL protects less, just means PBL is easier to apply and is mostly likely 1 micron or less layer while UK is 1 micron or more.

    Overcoat, IGL, and PBL all use SiO2 as their protective agent or a protective component. So their siloxane blend choices will be based on that as will their carrier solvent, and bonding agent.

    GTechniq uses a proprietary blend of petroleum distillates as their main source of solvent. The reason a high spot might need to be sanded off is because it's an ultra dense layer of siloxane component to the point where it's not that it's really that harder but an actual layer is much thicker.

    You can polish off a cquartz UK high spot with a towel and your finger but not if that high spot is a quarter of the bottle poured onto your hood. Or if I was to take a glosscoat syringe and drop half the tube onto one spot. Different coating densities.

    But it's all different kinds of siloxane when there a SiO2 element. Just like it's always polymer based when it's a sealant. Each manufacturer just had their blend of either or based on their chemists execution of what product they wanna make.

    I'm by no means a chemistry expert so I could be wrong here , this is just my understanding. Let me know if you have other questions, I kind of feel like I've massively derailed this thread so my apologies.
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  8. #105
    Senior Member acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coatingsarecrack View Post
    When Mike Phillips passes out the final exams i’m sitting next to this guy!
    Lol! Yes, this is amazing. You sir, WillSport3 are someone I look up to.

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  10. #106
    Senior Member WillSports3's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Too kind sir, this is just some research I did to try and understand coatings better for myself. Ended up going down a rabbit hole of LSP stuff.
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  12. #107
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillSports3 View Post
    SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
    What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
    Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
    Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
    It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
    That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
    Great posts, this jives with what was recently posted about the new 3D coating

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post


    Here's what Tunch has to say.

    And remember what I said about how an SDS sheet is NOT a formula. I've copied and pasted his reply to me about the questions and comments pointed out or asked in this thread below. I have take the liberty to format some of the text to stand out and draw your attention.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Hi Mike,

    Good comments throughout.


    What makes our coating better and different is the “Ceramic Resin“, which is a proprietary formula.


    One of the comments was:

    “if there is sio2 in the formula one needs a mask when applying”


    That is not necessary as it is not in powder form. Therefore it can not airborne. Besides it is amalgamated and in molten state in the mixture.


    At high temperatures Sio2 changes its character. In this case it is one of the carriers rather than the main player.


    Perhaps to state that ...“Does not contain Sio2 “ in the Q&A is not correct ..rather we should have said

    “our coating is not based on Sio2...but based on the “Ceramic Resin”.



    First and foremost I want to mention that the purpose of the SDS sheets are to show the hazardous ingredients... not to reveal the formulas.


    Basically when there is a fire or any other emergency situations it gives a chance to the first responders to get an idea how to take control of the situation or deal with the emergency. Not for the competitors to figure out the formulations.

    Therefore the ranges [of chemicals listed in the SDS sheet), are allowed to be broad. In our case Sio2 was transformed and the resulting formula became the final state.

    Many times in Chemistry A+B=C

    So when you say do you have A in C the answer is NO. Because the mixture of A&B now became C.

    Therefore it is very difficult to reverse Engineer C back to A and B in most cases. I hope it makes sense.

    Let me know if I can explain more in detail.


    Best Regards & Have a Green Day!

    Tunch Goren | C.E.O


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Thanks Tunch!


    :bow: :bow: :bow:

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  14. #108
    Senior Member WillSports3's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Long story short, a SDS sheet will not give you a formula, but it can give you an idea of how valid or invalid a product is. In the example of Turtle Wax's ceramic spray wax, IPA as the only solvent with no bonding agent (bonding agents are quite.. toxic. IGL can only claim VOC free, but not completely green) means that your bodyshop type Prep Wipes will get rid of it with enough time on the surface. I'll check a SDS sheet and if certain types of components are not listed, then I know that the product does not contain a high enough concentration of anything to qualify itself as "ceramic." The alcohol released is also not the correct type from two

    The term ceramic is also very misleading. There are very few coatings that are true ceramic coatings. A lot of the coatings you see on the market, and the reason why so many coatings have poor reputations, is because technically speaking ceramic is a very very broad term. Just like plates, watch faces, and rifle rated body armor plates are all ceramic. But so many different kinds of ceramic lol.

    3D sounds like it could be using a SiO2 resin to induce a reaction for Silica Carbide for a SiO2 and SiC mixed coating. That's kind of awesome but at the same time, has it's own set of problems.
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  16. #109
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    I often look at the material safety data sheets for base oil approximations %'s in motor oils. For example, a DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 is a PAO.

  17. #110
    Senior Member WillSports3's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

    Same idea behind it basically. For me, it's a way for me to save money on products that are just meh.
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