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  1. #21
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    Just to chime in,

    First some history, my first post that I can document on the Internet dates back to 1994 - probably not as long as some but probably longer than most of you and most any of our peers in the online car detailing world. At least I can document my online history.

    Note the header that lists the location, email address, title and time stamp. This was when I worked at Hewlett-Packard in Corvallis, Oregon.


    How to Polish Paint by Hand






    Here's my point, ever since my beginning on the Internet I have never tried to play the role of Chemist and certainly not try to play the role of chemist by trying to read and decipher and dissect SDS sheets. I have seen too many times where this will come back and bite you in the butt.




    As to the points brought up below,





    Quote Originally Posted by sixsix View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post

    It does contain Silicone Dioxide and Titanium Dioxide.
    I'm going to hold off on making any decisions just yet. One thing I learned while working at Meguiar's and dealing with both chemists at Meguiar's and non-chemists deciphering what's in the bottle by reading an SDS sheet is the chemist usually knows more than the non-chemist. I also know there can be many variations of "chemicals" that can fall under a general term or word. Silicone is an example. Remember - an SDS sheet is NOT a formula.




    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post

    It’s hard to claim it’s a “true ceramic coating” if it does not contain SIO2? Am I right?

    Let's give the chemist a chance to chime in.


    Love everyone's passion for car detailing and everything that revolves around it.


    :cheers?
    Mike Phillips
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  3. #22
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post


    I also like the comments about the low rolling angle, or as I think we like to call it in detail land, "sheeting."
    I think there's some confusion here. The low rolling angle is lack of surface contact - not abundance of surface contact. This product is formulated to create high surface tension not low surface tension.

    High surface tension = high water beading characteristics not sheeting characteristics.


    At least that's my understanding of the information presented and thus I'm just trying to make sure there's no confusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post

    Other big name detailers like Larry Kosilla have been talking about it and I hope more of the market starts paying attention.
    Talking about sheeting?


    It's an OLD topic. Meguiar's USED to offer products that focused on sheeting instead of water beading because they were practical. They were smart. They knew water beading leads to water spots on paint and IN paint.

    I've always said, Type II Water Spots, i.e. Crater Etchings IN the paint are in my opinion and in my experience the WORST type of below surface defect to have to remove and especially on a factory clearcoat finish in light of the fact factory clearcoat finishes are so THIN. The ONLY way to remove Type II Crater Etching Water Spots is to ABRADE the paint surface and this usually means using an aggressive compound and cutting pad. In other words, you need to remove a lot of paint. --> Not good for the paint.


    I'm not sure of anyone that's ever covered both of these topics, thin paint and Type II Water spots as much or as in-depth or as long as I have. Here's at least two articles on these topics.


    3 - Types of Water Spots - Type I, Type II and Type III


    Type II Water Spots
    Type II Water Spots are actual etchings or craters in the paint because something corrosive in a water source has landed on the paint and was not removed before a portion of the paint was eaten or dissolved by the corrosive substance.

    I took this photo myself when I helped Alex Fong from Corvette Forum remove a zillion Type II Water Spots out of the clear coat finish on his Corvette.




    Here's a close-up of the same photo, if you look closely you can see the edges are angled downward as this is an actual etching "into" the clear paint.





    Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips

    The factory clearcoat on a new or modern car measures approximately 2 mils thin.

    The average post-it not is around 3 mils thin.





    So in a perfect world - Car Waxes, Synthetic Paint Sealants and Ceramic Paint Coatings would NOT make water bead-up but would make water lay flat. This would avoid water spots - and especially the WORST kind of water spots that cause US to have to compound thin factory clearcoats in order to remove them.

    BUT - alas perception is reality. And the masses perceive water beading to mean two things.

    1: Protection.

    2: Longevity of protection.



    And for this topic, I cover it in DETAIL in this thread, and the topic does not date back to the date of the thread but back to 2004 when NXT was introduced to compete against Zaino Z2 and that's when Meguiar's gave up on trying to educate the masses that water beading was bad for paint and instead, "if you can't beat them, join them" started formulating everything to bead water. Not sure when Larry popped onto the scene, but it wasn't that far back.

    Read, don't scan the discussion here, and specifically my comments starting in #16

    advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting



    I've always been in the camp that water sheeting is better than water beading but you cannot change perception. If your product doesn't bead water and bead it really great and for a long time the masses will disparage it as no good. Been through this drama so many times.

    And because I've been in this industry as long as I have and I REMEMBER all this stuff, here's what I like to say,

    Car Detailing History




    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post

    As far as the SiO2 thing I'm indifferent, I try to focus on product performance vs whatever buzzword chemical is in it as we never really know.

    And I'm almost embaressed to say thing, (but I'm not really),

    I have an article on that...



    A great quote from John Dillon - When the topic of what's in the bottle comes up, simply put the focus on the performance of the product



    And regardless of the chemistry and words for this product - LOOK AT THE RESULTS!












    Mike Phillips
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  5. #23
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    I really don't care what's in it, if it works it works. Just that the statement of "a true ceramic coating doesn't contain any SiO2" kinda threw me off... But yeah, I'm not a chemist and haven't been on the internet as long as you so I'll wait for the professionals to tell me what to think.

  6. #24
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    I think there's some confusion here. The low rolling angle is lack of surface contact - not abundance of surface contact. This product is formulated to create high surface tension not low surface tension.

    High surface tension = high water beading characteristics not sheeting characteristics.


    At least that's my understanding of the information presented and thus I'm just trying to make sure there's no confusion.

    Thanks Mike, we're on the same page. I edited my post to avoid confusion. I know how careful you are with word selection in your articles.

    What I'm referring to is water rolling off the paint. I used to work in the fabric industry and for water repellency there's two distinct tests for how tall the water bead stands (contact angle) and how much you have to tilt the surface for the water bead to run off (sliding angle). The two tests weren't always correlated. I'm not sure if this translates perfectly to the detailing industry but in my opinion IF you want to have a hydrophobic surface and great water beads, its probably a good idea to have a low sliding angle too.

    Think about it, you accidentally drive through a sprinkler, do you want those beads to stick or roll off? Or when you're using your master blaster to dry the car? I can't think of any situation where sticky water beads are ideal except for taking pictures of water beads lol. From your article it looks like the 3D product gives both great water beading AND a low sliding angle

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  8. #25
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    Quote Originally Posted by sixsix View Post

    I really don't care what's in it, if it works it works. Just that the statement of "a true ceramic coating doesn't contain any SiO2" kinda threw me off... But yeah, I'm not a chemist and haven't been on the internet as long as you so I'll wait for the professionals to tell me what to think.
    It's all good - I'm just sharing what I've learned over the years.

    AND I have seen people, (not you), but over the years I've seen people embarress themselves proclaiming what they beleive to be facts garnered off a SDS sheet.

    Hang tight, I sent the link to this thread to Tunch including the link to the SDS sheet and INCLUDING a screenshot of the pertinent part that lists Si02 on the SDS sheet and I'll share his response.

    It's always great to have a Rep or in this case, the chemist and owner of 3D be willing to read through our collective comments and then take the time to address our concerns.

    Very professional.



    Mike Phillips
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  10. #26
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    and


    Here's what Tunch has to say.

    And remember what I said about how an SDS sheet is NOT a formula. I've copied and pasted his reply to me about the questions and comments pointed out or asked in this thread below. I have take the liberty to format some of the text to stand out and draw your attention.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Hi Mike,

    Good comments throughout.


    What makes our coating better and different is the “Ceramic Resin“, which is a proprietary formula.


    One of the comments was:

    “if there is sio2 in the formula one needs a mask when applying”


    That is not necessary as it is not in powder form. Therefore it can not airborne. Besides it is amalgamated and in molten state in the mixture.


    At high temperatures Sio2 changes its character. In this case it is one of the carriers rather than the main player.


    Perhaps to state that ...“Does not contain Sio2 “ in the Q&A is not correct ..rather we should have said

    “our coating is not based on Sio2...but based on the “Ceramic Resin”.



    First and foremost I want to mention that the purpose of the SDS sheets are to show the hazardous ingredients... not to reveal the formulas.


    Basically when there is a fire or any other emergency situations it gives a chance to the first responders to get an idea how to take control of the situation or deal with the emergency. Not for the competitors to figure out the formulations.

    Therefore the ranges [of chemicals listed in the SDS sheet), are allowed to be broad. In our case Sio2 was transformed and the resulting formula became the final state.

    Many times in Chemistry A+B=C

    So when you say do you have A in C the answer is NO. Because the mixture of A&B now became C.

    Therefore it is very difficult to reverse Engineer C back to A and B in most cases. I hope it makes sense.

    Let me know if I can explain more in detail.


    Best Regards & Have a Green Day!

    Tunch Goren | C.E.O


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Thanks Tunch!


    :bow: :bow: :bow:
    Mike Phillips
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Dr Oldz's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    This is so awesome that Tunch has enlightened us. Also fantastic he responds quickly!!!


    Me.... I stopped caring what’s in a product during the SMAT vs Diminishing AT wars. I have learned I only care about two things! #1 It works for me or #2 it doesn’t. SIMPLE!!!
    Jim

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  14. #28
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. So sounds like it's prob just used as one of the carriers to get the ceramic resin on the paint?

    Like I said, as long as it works. I try not to get hung up on the latest buzzwords and I don't think sio2 is the end all be all. It deff get's thrown around way too much.

  15. #29
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Oldz View Post

    This is so awesome that Tunch has enlightened us. Also fantastic he responds quickly!!!
    I don't have access to as many chemists as I would like to have although I have nothing but a stellar record of only sharing the info they want shared.

    One thing for sure - when people, (that's you guys and gals), want information about products that is a legit reason for the info - the chemists that share information also see an increase in trust and this equates to an increase in sales.

    Another friend of mine that is a chemist that has been very open to me asking questions and sharing on this forum is Dr. David Ghodoussi at Optimum Polymer Technologies. Like Tunch, he is the real-deal.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Oldz View Post

    Me.... I stopped caring what’s in a product during the SMAT vs Diminishing AT wars.
    I don't remember much about wars or arguing but I do remember a lot of confusion when this new micro-abrasive technology was introduced by Meguiar's back in 2007 or so.

    The SMAT Pack - Everything you ever wanted to know about Meguiar's SMAT products...


    I was at Meguiar's 'when the head chemist walked over to the garage and handed me a bottle with a Lab Sample of what would become M105 before it went into production to test. I still have that bottle in my office.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Oldz View Post

    I have learned I only care about two things! #1 It works for me or #2 it doesn’t. SIMPLE!!!
    And that is what's important at the end of the day. Here's a related article. I'm so glad I found John's business card. Hard to believe I still have it after 30 years...

    Find something you like and use it often






    Quote Originally Posted by sixsix View Post

    That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. So sounds like it's prob just used as one of the carriers to get the ceramic resin on the paint?
    After I read what Tunch wrote I would "guess" it's more than a carrying agent - the Si02 has been mixed with the Titanium Oxide to create a new substance. But again, I'm just guessing by going on the "words" shared. I'm not a chemist but I do read and write carefully and if I apply this, (reading and writing carefully), to what Tunch wrote, well then this is my guess.



    Quote Originally Posted by sixsix View Post

    Like I said, as long as it works. I try not to get hung up on the latest buzzwords and I don't think sio2 is the end all be all. It deff get's thrown around way too much.

    I still practice simply focusing on the performance of the product, not the stuff inside the bottle. The good news is - all the stuff I write about and review works as is advertised, if it didn't - I would take a pass on writing about it.

    Just to note - we've had some brands come and go in the warehouse here at Autogeek and I'm happy to say, if I know and can prove the product does not perform as advertised, I don't have to write about it or review it. It is what it is...


    Mike Phillips
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  17. #30
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish




    At the time I used this coating from 3D the Autogeek.com store did not have the 3D Wipe in stock.

    I'm happy to say it's now in stock and in my normal practice of taking a system approach when detailing cars, I'd recommend getting this panel wipe if you're planning on using the 3D Ceramic Coating.


    From the Autogeek store


    3D Wipe

    3D Wipe is a cleaner formulated to help you clean the surface of your car before applying a layer of protection. 3D Wipe does not contain any oils that can cause bonding issues when you apply a protective wax, sealant or coating. In fact, 3D Wipe will remove and oils and grease allowing for the perfect surface for a coating to be applied. 3D Wipe is body shop safe, can be applied to almost all surfaces and is easy to apply.

    Before applying a coat of protection, it is important to make sure that surface is prepped and ready to go. This means it needs to be free of any oils or grease on the surface that would harm the bonding process. With 3D Wipe, you don’t have to worry about lingering oils affecting the protection you wish to add.

    3D Wipe is an essential preparation step to use before applying a protective coating. This product will easily remove dirt, dust and polishing oils from the surface, that way you won’t come across any issues when it comes to the protective coating from bonding to the surface. Before applying any protective coating, you should wash and dry the surface, then use 3D Wipe to finish the preparation.

    3D Wipe is body shop safe, making it the perfect product for a detailer at any level to be able to use. All your surfaces can be prepped and ready to be protected as this product can be applied to paint, glass, plastic, rubber and metal. Best of all, 3D is easy-to-use! All you have to do is spray on and wipe off, no additional tools (other than a microfiber towel) or experience necessary. Save time, money and energy by using 3D Wipe.


    DIRECTIONS

    -Spray the surface.
    -Use a clean microfiber towel to wipe off remaining product.
    -Apply as many times as needed.






    On the Autogeek store


    3D Wipe 16 ounce spray bottle



    3D makes good stuff.


    Mike Phillips
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