Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
Hey guys, well it's time for some serious work for me. We've got a 96' GMC Safari conversion van with some serious clear coat issues especially up top and i'd like to know what it would take for me to reclear it my self.
The base paint (white) seems pretty good...and i dont have any type of painting equipment so this would be a rattle can job but i want it to look as good as possible and hopefully last a couple years at least.
So what i need to know is:
What process should I use to remove the remaining clear ESPECIALLY on the side of the top where there are decals (pictures below)
Is there anything that needs to be done to the base coat before I spray the clear on it?
Are there any particular brands of clear that anyone has uses (remember...rattle can stuff) and had good luck with?
What step(s) do i need to do between applying coats of clear?
Just for the record...i've done a couple little touch up jobs with rattle can stuff...and wasnt totally please with the results...not due just to product but due to I think I really need some direction as to what i need to do...step by step...so please feel free to 'dumb it down' for me.
I tried talking to the guy at the local auto paint place but he was some young guy about my age who really didnt get into too much 'detail' as to what i need to do when i did a bumper repaint....just basically told me to use an 3m scuff pad....clean it with soap and water and then spray...like i said...not a lot of help.
I'll put some pictures below...some are of the top..and some are of the 'kit' on the van and the edges of the kit has clear failure as well...considering replacing the kit costs over $1000 easily...id rather see what i can do to make it look as close to new again as i can....here are the pictures
Here is the full van:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../Side_View.JPG
And now the uglyness...the roof pictures:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...31/Roof_2_.JPG
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/931/Roof.JPG
Here is one of the side of the top where the decals are...its peeling there also....
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../Top_Decal.JPG
Here are a couple of where the clear is peeling on the edges of the blue kit
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...l_Well_Kit.JPG
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...Bottom_Kit.JPG
As for these....i'll personally handle them...no help needed there...gonna break out the Meguiar's twins:pc7424:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...ood_Swirls.JPG
but in all seriousness....help with the clear coat issues here would really save me.
Thanks in advance...
wills
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
When painting, proper adhesion is first and foremost. For this to happen the existing surface must be clean and then sanded with the proper grit paper. Sanding is done so that the new cost will have something to "grab" on to or creates a mechanical bond between it and the existing surface.
Depending on the quality of the existing the color coat, you might end up reapplying both color and clear.
Clean the surface
Prep-sol is a paint cleaner made by Dupont and it specially formulated to remove silicone, oils, and contaminates making the surface ready for painting. If this step is not done properly the paint in it's liquid state will begin to separate in spots leaving little craters called "fish eyes". There are additives for paint called fish-eye removers so you might want to do a little homework before diving right in.
Sanding
Preparing the surface for painting should be done as described above. Wet sanding with 800 to 1000 grit max is spot on for proper adhesion of the new clear. Initially, a coarser grit can be used to remove the dead layer then finish up with the finer grit I mentioned.
Wet sand the entire surface evenly removing as much of the dead clear. Any paint that's not damaged can be feather edge sanded so it gradually blends into the adjacent surface and when painted over will blend smoothly and seamlessly.
Have you ever sprayed an automotive finish before?
Do you have a compressor and spray gun?
Remember; your surface preparation will dictate the quality of the finish once complete..
Advice
Talk to a different guy behind the counter at the paint shop, the one you talked to is an idiot. Tell him what you want to do and he'll provide you with some direction..
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
I worked in a body shop for several months. To be honest your clear and any paint pigment is also gone. Clear is the armor against the elements, without it, the color fades, deteriorates and the coat becomes thiner until it hits the primer.
Two basic approaches would be.
1. If you want it done right you need some dupont pain primer, and the color code to you paint, which is found on the jams, under the hood or trunk. To make it simpler just call the dealer, give them your VIN and they will let you know who makes the paint and what its color coding is. Next, after purchasing the paint and then some, you have to sand down until you hit the primer coat or base paint, which is normally dark grey. You will have to use a pneumatic circular sander with 3M-800 Grit, move up to 1200 grit, apply a coat of primer and sand again with a 3M scuff pad, (purple) and Dawn or Ajax soap mixed into a bucket of water. About 2 oz. per 4 Gal. to lubricate and strip the surface of any oil based surfactants. Hos down with constant running water, basically a wet/soap sand.
When the paint is as smooth as a babies behind, let stand under the sun to dry, then cool off under the shade. Apply color paint, wait several hours, depending on the paint color, type and mixture ratio. Apply clear and vuala.
2. If you only want to rig it, or murder it, wet sand the faded clear coat with 1200, avoiding the removal of color paint and lightly, very lightly sand the areas that do not have clear on top. Apply two coats of clear and you should be good. The old clear will blend into the new clear leaving no noticeable marks..
Hope it helps..
And yes..I would go back to the paint store and SMACK the piss out of the guy behind the counter, out of general principle..
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbyG
When painting, proper adhesion is first and foremost. For this to happen the existing surface must be clean and then sanded with the proper grit paper. Sanding is done so that the new cost will have something to "grab" on to or creates a mechanical bond between it and the existing surface.
Depending on the quality of the existing the color coat, you might end up reapplying both color and clear.
Clean the surface
Prep-sol is a paint cleaner made by Dupont and it specially formulated to remove silicone, oils, and contaminates making the surface ready for painting. If this step is not done properly the paint in it's liquid state will begin to separate in spots leaving little craters called "fish eyes". There are additives for paint called fish-eye removers so you might want to do a little homework before diving right in.
Sanding
Preparing the surface for painting should be done as described above. Wet sanding with 800 to 1000 grit max is spot on for proper adhesion of the new clear. Initially, a coarser grit can be used to remove the dead layer then finish up with the finer grit I mentioned.
Wet sand the entire surface evenly removing as much of the dead clear. Any paint that's not damaged can be feather edge sanded so it gradually blends into the adjacent surface and when painted over will blend smoothly and seamlessly.
Have you ever sprayed an automotive finish before?
Do you have a compressor and spray gun?
Remember; your surface preparation will dictate the quality of the finish once complete..
Advice
Talk to a different guy behind the counter at the paint shop, the one you talked to is an idiot. Tell him what you want to do and he'll provide you with some direction..
Thanks for the advice.
First off, nope no compressor or spray gun, thats why i said this will probably be a rattle can job (spray paint). I know its going to be hard as hell being that the truck is pretty tall with a raised roof...but i'm use to working with things without the 'best' things available and coming out on top most times...i dont mind applying extra time/effort to make up for lack of equipment...just need a little direction on this one.
As i said above also, ive done some touch up stuff on cars with again...spray paint stuff...so i have a general idea of how VERY important prep is...and thou its not as delicate of a job ive spray painted many houses with a sprayer and realize how runs can happen very fast..how thin layers work better than 1 thick one etc...so i have a little experience, just not a lot...but id do have common sense so i think that helps a lot.
I believe i can do the prep you recommended...i agree too with Hudson as far as the base isnt the best...i dont want to sand down to primer if i dont have to...but i wouldnt mind touching up the base coat in its bad spots...any advice on that?
If you need to know anything else with what im dealing with let me know...ill provide any info you need....i just want to do a good job
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hudson1gua
I worked in a body shop for several months. To be honest your clear and any paint pigment is also gone. Clear is the armor against the elements, without it, the color fades, deteriorates and the coat becomes thiner until it hits the primer.
Two basic approaches would be.
1. If you want it done right you need some dupont pain primer, and the color code to you paint, which is found on the jams, under the hood or trunk. To make it simpler just call the dealer, give them your VIN and they will let you know who makes the paint and what its color coding is. Next, after purchasing the paint and then some, you have to sand down until you hit the primer coat or base paint, which is normally dark grey. You will have to use a pneumatic circular sander with 3M-800 Grit, move up to 1200 grit, apply a coat of primer and sand again with a 3M scuff pad, (purple) and Dawn or Ajax soap mixed into a bucket of water. About 2 oz. per 4 Gal. to lubricate and strip the surface of any oil based surfactants. Hos down with constant running water, basically a wet/soap sand.
When the paint is as smooth as a babies behind, let stand under the sun to dry, then cool off under the shade. Apply color paint, wait several hours, depending on the paint color, type and mixture ratio. Apply clear and vuala.
2. If you only want to rig it, or murder it, wet sand the faded clear coat with 1200, avoiding the removal of color paint and lightly, very lightly sand the areas that do not have clear on top. Apply two coats of clear and you should be good. The old clear will blend into the new clear leaving no noticeable marks..
Hope it helps..
And yes..I would go back to the paint store and SMACK the piss out of the guy behind the counter, out of general principle..
Thank you too for the help/advice...ive thought about the smack thing before lol....i'm sure i can get someone else to help me out a little more...its been about 2 years since ive been there..hopefully someone else will be able to give a little better advice.
As i said above if i can avoid sanding down to primer...id like to do just that...but if i could touch up the base coat without going to primer id like to....
So am i understanding correctly that i should use somwhere around 600-800 grit to get rid of the remaining BAD clear...or should i just get rid of all of it...it kinda 'flakes' off really...you flake one chunk off and it just leads to another chunk flaking off...so im not sure how well even the 'good' spots are as far as adhearing to the base coat...so thats why i wonder if should just take off all the clear.
I do really want a good blend i HATE having it look patchy or look like its been touched up...im more concerned with this on the blue kit pieces ...as they are much more noticable and its only a small area that has faded....ive bought dupli-color spray paint before...it matches pretty good but always seems to end up a LITTLE darker than the rest...im not sure if its me...or if its the paint..or both...should i just do the WHOLE section that is bad rather than just spot paint?
Thanks again guys...this helps a lot
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
An additional point I didn't mention is it's the roof we're discussing. The reason I mention this is it's essentially out of the line of sight so keep this in mind.
A question you have to ask yourself; given the limited amount of tools and using only spray cans what is my honest expectation?
Clear Coat Failure
It's pretty obvious that the clear protective coat has failed and is separating from the color substrate. For the most part this needs to be removed otherwise it will more than likely continue to flake.
The point about not sanding through the color coat is an important one, otherwise you'll need to prime, color, and clear.
If you're looking for a decent job then maybe take it to a place like Maaco and have them do it. They have the proper equipment and expertise to knock this out in a day at a decent price.
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbyG
An additional point I didn't mention is it's the roof we're discussing. The reason I mention this is it's essentially out of the line of sight so keep this in mind.
A question you have to ask yourself; given the limited amount of tools and using only spray cans what is my honest expectation?
Clear Coat Failure
It's pretty obvious that the clear protective coat has failed and is separating from the color substrate. For the most part this needs to be removed otherwise it will more than likely continue to flake.
The point about not sanding through the color coat is an important one, otherwise you'll need to prime, color, and clear.
If you're looking for a decent job then maybe take it to a place like Maaco and have them do it. They have the proper equipment and expertise to knock this out in a day at a decent price.
Yup ive thought about that...i know i can only get it 'so good' even if i do a great job with the tools given. I also agree all the clear up top needs to go. I'm pretty busy right now and this isnt something id want to do like TOMORROW lol...but i did want to mentally prep myself for it...learn about it and weigh my options...plus painting in 105+ degrees isnt the best thing. Hell every time it gets washed more flakes off...so maybe it will almost all flake off by the time it cools down and i can give it a try sanding with 800 grit and hitting it with clear to see how it turns out....if it doesnt work then i can always go and get it redone at a paint shop if money permits....
I am interested in learning about painting PERIOD...even thou i dont have the tools, or the money for the tools at the moment...I am getting more detailing jobs as of late and my winter customers will be coming back soon (wonderful part about az, you can detail year round) so that SHOULD make for quite a bit more business *crossing fingers*...and now that we're detailing RV's as well...those can be big pay checks if we get the jobs (even thou their also big pains in the a**).
If i were to get into painting, what would be the first essentials to buy and what would i look for when buying them? Any other tips woudl be great too.
Really appreciate the feedback so far and still hope to get more.
wills
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hudson1gua
And yes..I would go back to the paint store and SMACK the piss out of the guy behind the counter
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/ima...cratchhead.gif
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
I'm for sure no pro painter or anything, but just thought I'd chime in. The problem with clear coat flaking off like that is that even the clear that is still on there has lost its adhesion. So if you don't sand back to some decent stuff it will likely just flake off again. With that said... I would try to use a plastic razor blade and scrape off all of the flaking clear and any that comes off easily with the blade. Get it back to a point where you can't lift the clear with the blade. Then VERY carefully sand it smooth with something like 600-800 grit sandpaper to smooth the surface. It is easy to sand through the base before you realize it, base isn't durable and comes off easily. Once everything is sanded and you are satisfied, wipe the area down with IPA. Let it dry then wipe with a tack cloth and spray your clear in medium coats. Follow the directions on the can for recoat times. Those aren't "suggestions" and if you recoat outside the window it can crinkle your paint or cause adhesion problems.
As far as learning to paint... most of what I've picked up has been from the autobody 101 forums. They offer tons of help over there and every question has been asked before so a quick search will bring up great information.
For painting your first purchase should be a decent compressor and gun setup. I have a 60 gallon compressor with water seperator and regulator. My gun is a DeVilbis GTi plus and I have a cheapo campbell hausfeld mini gun that I use for small stuff.
Hope that helps. Good luck.
Re: Help with Clear Coat failure (pictures included!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiffanator
I'm for sure no pro painter or anything, but just thought I'd chime in. The problem with clear coat flaking off like that is that even the clear that is still on there has lost its adhesion. So if you don't sand back to some decent stuff it will likely just flake off again. With that said... I would try to use a plastic razor blade and scrape off all of the flaking clear and any that comes off easily with the blade. Get it back to a point where you can't lift the clear with the blade. Then VERY carefully sand it smooth with something like 600-800 grit sandpaper to smooth the surface. It is easy to sand through the base before you realize it, base isn't durable and comes off easily. Once everything is sanded and you are satisfied, wipe the area down with IPA. Let it dry then wipe with a tack cloth and spray your clear in medium coats. Follow the directions on the can for recoat times. Those aren't "suggestions" and if you recoat outside the window it can crinkle your paint or cause adhesion problems.
As far as learning to paint... most of what I've picked up has been from the autobody 101 forums. They offer tons of help over there and every question has been asked before so a quick search will bring up great information.
For painting your first purchase should be a decent compressor and gun setup. I have a 60 gallon compressor with water seperator and regulator. My gun is a DeVilbis GTi plus and I have a cheapo campbell hausfeld mini gun that I use for small stuff.
Hope that helps. Good luck.
That does help thanks Tiff! I pretty much assume the clear is ALL shot...even whats left...its been doing this for a while and just gets worse n worse.
I appreciate the autobody101 forum link...Ive been meaning to try to find a forum dedicated to body work like this site is dedicated to detailing...now i just need to find one that is a good forum for learning mechanic work. I know more about that than i do body work, but i know there is a lot more i COULD and would like to learn. I dont like the idea of bringing my car to too many people and let them work on it especially since most are just gonna really dirty/scratch it up after ive but so much work into making it look awesome...so if i could work on it myself that would be sweet...any suggestions on mechanic type forums?
