Seeing Dots! Help! - Pinhole or Solvent Pop? Common Paint Issue

Seeing Dots! Help! - Pinhole or Solvent Pop? Common Paint Issue



Started polishing the hood today and had to stop because when I was done, I saw these tiny little dots all over that I couldn't remove. Here's the pictures.

Before starting:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...2&pictureid=53

After polishing (the swirls are gone but these dots are present):
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...2&pictureid=51
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...2&pictureid=52

The process I used was that I clay bared the hood and then used Menz PO85RD and grey pad with the PC on 5. (I put the product on only after misting the (new) CCS pad with the XMT conditioner.) After wiping that off (and it took a lot of effort because it was dry in places), I used a blue pad with the same Menz product and same PC setting. That wiped off a lot easier. The working time of the Menz product was like 30 seconds before it started to dry. I tried using more product. I tried using less product. The pad was not spinning like it should have either. I don't know what I'm doing wrong there because I've watched the process of Mike Phillips using the PC and it seemed like he had twice the working time that I had - different products though.

When I pulled the vehicle out into the sun, I saw these dots. I tried using the gray pad again but still no luck with the dots. I'm starting to question if they were there to begin with and I just didn't use an aggressive enough product from the start to remove them. I have some PO106FA but didn't want to go any further until I consulted with the forum.

Does anyone know what these dots are and if I put them in the finish? And does anyone know why the working time of the Menz product was so short?
:surrender:

Those holes youre seeing are called solvent popping.Theres nothing you can do to them other than respray the panel. Though unattractive, do not worry cause these are quite common on some vehicles.

Heres a quote from Mike Philips

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Philips

The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotZeroSix

Those holes youre seeing are called solvent popping.Theres nothing you can do to them other than respray the panel. Dont worry, cause these are common on Hard clear coat volvo s40.

Heres a quote from Mike Philips
[qoute]The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels. [/qoute]

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Thank you Not0, I'm relieved that I didn't do this but I'm also dismayed that my hood looks like this now. It's true, the swirl marks do hide them. I know it's only a toyota truck and not a ferrari but I want my finish to look awesome. Rats!!!!!

Any idea on the working time issue?

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots. They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road. They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint. There was a thread on this before, Jason(DeepGloss) and I explained this on that thread also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots. They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road. They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint. There was a thread on this before, Jason(DeepGloss) and I explained this on that thread also.

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It is the factory paint. I guess they could be from road debris because I did not see them on my test area which was the tailgate. The dots are pretty consistent all over the hood. Do you have a link to the thread you mentioned?

edit: is this the link?
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...hite-dots.html

Thats the thread. I have a few on the hood of my vette also. Like I said it is not solvent pop, it is the sand blasting effect while driving from the debris in the air.

Thank you very much Rocket :props:,

Soo . . . if by chance I use a polish with more cut I could minimize how many there are and then maybe invest in a bug deflector?

Anyhow, any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong with regards to the short working time of the Menz product?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

Thank you very much Rocket :props:,

Soo . . . if by chance I use a polish with more cut I could minimize how many there are and then maybe invest in a bug deflector?

Anyhow, any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong with regards to the short working time of the Menz product?

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You could minimize them if they are shallow, but since they are white they are through the color coat so unless you repaint they will always be there. A bug deflector would be big a big help.

Sounds like you are not using the right amount of product and also take your pc up to 6. The polish should work longer than 30 seconds for sure. If with a rotary it works longer than than that. Was it cool out, if so it sounds like it isn't spreading like it should. To keep the bottle of polish warm fill up something with very warm ater and keep the bottle in that or some other type of heat source to keep the polish in a more liquid state.

I will keep that in mind. I started at #3 and then went to #5 once it was spread out as per Mike's videos. The amount I put on the pad was a circle about 1/2" inside the circumference of the 6-1/2" pad. The temp was around 70 today so I didn't cool or heat the product. All of my detailing products stay inside the house until needed so I know they were at the same temp. And the truck stayed in the garage so there was no sun directly on it while I was polishing and the engine was cool. Thanks so much for the advice Rocket. I appreciate your time.

You are welcome, anytime. Sounds like you are going to have to find just the right amount of polish then. I use about about four dots on a pad with a rotary and its work time is over a minute.

I had a thought. I tried to polish in a localized area first with Wolfgang paintwork enhancer, once with a Megs polish, twice with PO106FA, 4 times with ScratchX and it didn't even make a dent in the dots. I realize that they could be from road debris but it seems far too consistent from the front of the hood to the back, left to right and I started wondering, could this be metal flake I'm seeing? Here's some photos.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...2&pictureid=70

Some of the dots are seen around the edge of the flourescent light.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...2&pictureid=69

I'm not trying to deny the advice that's been offered but trying to rule out other explanations. I haven't polished on any of the side panels yet to see if the dots are there as well.

Asphalt Rocket:
Would a glaze help in this situation or one of the commercially available color fill waxes help?

I realize that a repaint is the best fix but in this case there may be a temp work around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OGauge4Me

Asphalt Rocket:
Would a glaze help in this situation or one of the commercially available color fill waxes help?

I realize that a repaint is the best fix but in this case there may be a temp work around.

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Unfortunetly there is nothing that will cover it up. The little holes are so deep that nothing is going to fill them up. The reason they are white is they are below the color. Every car has them that drives up down the road, it is worse if you have to drive on a highway everyday.

Ok, after some further investigation, I gave some bad info. I noticed that the dots start at about 6" from the front of the hood (where I would expect them to be worse if they were road-blasting) and all the way to the back of the hood from left to right. I also do not see any dots on the front of any of the fenders. I believe it has something to do with the paint but I need an expert to look at it to confirm this.

Per OGauge's PM, I tried the "hand in a baggie" and I was impressed at how much this can tell about the finish. It magnified x1000 what can be felt by hand. It felt smooth at the front of the hood and rough towards the back (over the dots) even though the entire hood was polished. I also tried a toothpick to gently try to put it in one of the dots but this was inconclusive.

I looked at the front of the roof, again weighing the possibility that it is in fact road-blasting. After clay baring it, it felt smooth (w/ the baggie) and there was evidence of road-blasting but it was a different appearance and pattern than what's on the hood. Not to mention that I hadn't polished the roof yet so I feel confident that what little was there could be corrected.

I apoligize for saying that the dots were over the entire hood. This new information makes me lean farther from road-blasting and more towards something else. What that something else is, I don't know. I'm not one to disagree with experience and Asphalt, if AGO had a rep system, I'd have repped you several times for all your help, not just in this thread but others as well. Not to mention that you have much more experience at this than I, I'm the new kid on the block. Something just isn't adding up - that's all I'm saying.

I think my next step is to have someone experienced take a look at it. Because if it is a problem with the paint, it shouldn't be doing that and Toyota is going to hear about it especially in light of how I take care of my truck plus it's still under warranty. I fully expect to hear "NO" and that I'll have to pay for the respray myself but nothing ventured . . .

Does anyone know a reputable and honest professional in Northern Ohio who can look at my hood and give me an honest opinion?

Sorry for the long blog and thanks again for all the help.

Still learning,
Paul

P.S. shouldn't this guy be using the two bucket method? :autowash:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots.

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You sure about that, AR?

I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnHenry

You sure about that, AR?

I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

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I haven't seen solvent pop on any new cars, but do see alot of the sand blasting on the new cars, just like the newer windshields also seem to be softer and have the road rash effect.

Ph16, thanks for the kind words. From what you are saying now it seems like maybe some kind of chemical might of gotten on the paint. Unless you can find someone in person that you can trust and has the knowledge of paint you really are not going to know. Unfortunetly the pics are hard to tell what it really is now.

*****UPDATE*****

So now that spring is here and the sun is shining in Ohio, I decided to take the truck back to Toyota for the dots on the hood which are still there. I rode with the service manager to a local body shop (not Toyota) where they take their work to. The guy at the body shop said that the dots were in the clear coat and that they would try a few things before resorting to completely repainting the entire hood. But the entire visit was leaning in my favor. Anyhow, the manager is going to call me next week at which time I'll ask point blank, "This is under warranty right?" I mean, I'm still well within my 3yr/36k. It sounded to me like they wanted me to tell them how to proceed.

*****QUESTIONS*****

The body shop indicated that they could try wet sanding w/ 3000 to see if that removes the dots. Which to me brings a whole new set of concerns about this whole process. I told them that I don't want to be left with a miniscule amount of clear when they're all done. I told him also that I didn't want a glaze which to me is just a bandaid until my warranty ends next January (2011) and the glaze "wears off." I don't know the first thing about this body shop other than that this dealership takes their vehicles there.

HOW SHOULD I HANDLE THIS???? What should I insist on happening? Can clear coat be reapplied after the wet sand if the existing clear becomes too thin?

THANK YOU FOR ANY ADVICE YOU CAN OFFER,
Paul
Feed back please

I too have the little pin hole dot's on my hood, but not on the bumper or quarter panels. The hood is factory (to my knowledge) and with the same experience you went through in the OP, followed by research I still haven't determined if it's solvent popping, the sand blasting effect or something else. I did the same thing, tape off an area and try to reduce the appearance by sanding/polishing. It did not help at all. The dots seem too evenly distributed and out of the way for road debris to hit and chip. I intend to try spraying new clear on the whole hood sometime, till then I just live with them. :mad:

Mentioning that you don't want a glaze was good, may have saved you from a headache. I've sprayed rattle-can clear on my bumper over the (sanded and prepped) factory clear with great results, so I'm sure a pro painter could do it. IMO if the shop thinks they can get them out with 3000 grit, I wouldn't have them work on my car at all. Good luck :xyxthumbs:

Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again. I'm a HUGE fan of wetsanding as I've seen it remove incredible amounts of defects in a very short period of time and still leave lots of clear on the paint. Don't be afraid if they're going to wet-sand with 3000 grit. That's almost a piece of notebook paper in terms of cutting power. I wetsand with 2500 grit all the time. Good luck with your issues. I hope they fix it for you under warranty. That blue is an awesome color!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by O.C.Detailing

Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again. I'm a HUGE fan of wetsanding as I've seen it remove incredible amounts of defects in a very short period of time and still leave lots of clear on the paint. Don't be afraid if they're going to wet-sand with 3000 grit. That's almost a piece of notebook paper in terms of cutting power. I wetsand with 2500 grit all the time. Good luck with your issues. I hope they fix it for you under warranty. That blue is an awesome color!

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Thanks Adam. I was told by the body shop guy that the clear on the Toys was about 2mils thick (.002") which doesn't seem thick to me at all. But I guess I won't be afraid to go the wet sand route with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots.

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This is were a seasoned and expert Paint Instructor from a paint manufacturer would really come in handy to ask questions because I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET

They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road.

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I lived in the Mojave Desert for over 7 years, it's very WINDY in the desert and very SANDY in the desert. There are times when I"ve been driving down residential roads where the wind was blowing so hard and there was so much dirt/dust/SAND in the air that it sounded and felt like your car's paint was being sand blasted.

I've operated sand blasters for a job at one time, my friend built the largest sand blaster I've ever seen, this thing could cut through metal if you held the nozzle in once place to long.

I taught classes at Meguiar's from 2002 through 2009 and one thing I've seen a lot of is hoods and bumpers and even windshields that look like they've been sand blasted and if I were to ask the person if they drove to Las Vegas a lot the answer would usually be "Yes". The highway from Orange County to Las Vegas is the I-15, I drove the I-15 every time I drove to work and a few times from Apple Valley to Las Vegas or Lake Havasu, when the wind kicks up which is most of the time your car will be hit by dirt, dust, debris and sand as you drive and it will leave pinholes or craters and chipped paint on the front of your car.

It certainly made me never want to own a nice car if I were to have to drive the I-15 a lot. Luckily I worked from home and only had to drive from Apple Valley to Irvine for when I had a class to teach. Point being... I've seen sand blasted cars and it's a different look than pinholes from solvent popping.

Here is what solvent popping looks like, I took this picture from the 1957 Chevrolet I buffed out last summer using the Flex 3401. This cannot be fixed because as I was quoted from another thread [in this thread]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

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Here's the thread and here are the pictures with my comments from that thread dated,

1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

This is the after side. The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...TuqChev073.jpg



And a shot right on the tape-line...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...TuqChev074.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET

They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint.

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Also, usually after polishing, since a lot of polishes are white or whitish in color and also tend to dry very white, the pinholes or craters stand out like a Sore Thumb because they are now filled with white residue and it contrast against medium to dark color paints.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

Ok, after some further investigation, I gave some bad info. I noticed that the dots start at about 6" from the front of the hood (where I would expect them to be worse if they were road-blasting) and all the way to the back of the hood from left to right. I also do not see any dots on the front of any of the fenders. I believe it has something to do with the paint but I need an expert to look at it to confirm this.

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Like I stated above, I've seen a lot of "FACTORY" paint with what looks like solvent popping, whether it's actually solvent popping or not I don't know. All I know is that one of the things we did at all the Meguiar's classes is take daily driver cars that were thrashed and polish them out to a clear, swirl-free shine and after doing this often times these tiny holes or craters show up in the paint.

It's usually very disappointing to the owner of the car but there's really nothing you can do outside of having the affected panel re-painted.

Here's one idea but I'm not officially saying this is the problem. When a problem happens to just the hood of a car, one thing that could be a factor is HEAT, as in heat rising off the engine.

The problem with this idea is that the pinholes or craters, because they tend to be throughout the layer or matrix of paint doesn't make sense because the paint is cured hard by the time any substantial heat from the engine can be transferred to the hood by driving it for periods of time, so while it's an influencing factor, my guess is that it's not really a problem at least as it's related to pinholes in factory paint.

My guess is the problem takes place during the painting process and it's actually somehow sub-surface and then when the finish is machine polished and some of the top layer of paint is removed the underlying craters appear.

This is just a guess because I've worked on a zillion hoods and often times you don't see the pinholes before polishing but you do after polishing. It could be they are present before you start polishing and you're eyes just can see them due to the swirls and other defects camouflaging them but it would take some methodical testing to troubleshoot or isolated this factor and when you're teaching a class with about 30 people in it you really don't have this kind of time to get this deep.

Another theory I've had for some time is that these pinholes or craters are areas with softer paint, or somehow defective from the spraying process and after machine buffing with anything abrasive you remove, or even pull-out paint from these tiny areas and get this pinhole looking effect. (Just some guessing)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

Per OGauge's PM, I tried the "hand in a baggie" and I was impressed at how much this can tell about the finish. It magnified x1000 what can be felt by hand.

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Just to note, we show the plastic baggie technique in this video...

Direct Link: How detailing clay works and how to use detailing clay to remove above surface bonded contaminants

It does dramatically increase the sensitivity of your sense of touch...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

I think my next step is to have someone experienced take a look at it. Because if it is a problem with the paint, it shouldn't be doing that and Toyota is going to hear about it especially in light of how I take care of my truck plus it's still under warranty.

Still learning,
Paul

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Everyone reading this thread now and into the future would love to hear what Toyota says about the problem so if possible, please do follow-up this thread with any conclusions they come up with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnHenry

I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

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I'm vindicating you on your post John, I've seen this problem all the time and it really doesn't seem to show up till after a thorough machine cleaning and polishing as stated above. You can only imagine how much fun it is to show a class of 20 to 50 people a swirl-free finish but a finish with pinholes after being polished and all you can do at that point is try to explain it and it's never fun and most people, especially the car owner are usually disappointed in their cars' paint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

*****UPDATE*****

So now that spring is here and the sun is shining in Ohio, I decided to take the truck back to Toyota for the dots on the hood which are still there. I rode with the service manager to a local body shop (not Toyota) where they take their work to.

The guy at the body shop said that the dots were in the clear coat and that they would try a few things before resorting to completely repainting the entire hood.

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Confirmation and vindication of everything we're all discussing here on the forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

*****QUESTIONS*****

The body shop indicated that they could try wet sanding w/ 3000 to see if that removes the dots. Which to me brings a whole new set of concerns about this whole process. I told them that I don't want to be left with a minuscule amount of clear when they're all done. I told him also that I didn't want a glaze which to me is just a band aid until my warranty ends next January (2011) and the glaze "wears off." I don't know the first thing about this body shop other than that this dealership takes their vehicles there.

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You nailed all the important points that --> you <-- will be affected by.

• Sanding removes paint
• Buffing out sanding marks removes a little more paint
• Factory paint is thin to start with

While this can be done safely, you bought and paid for a "new" car with all the paint that came from the factory, not a whisper thin coating as a result of having to have the car repaired for a problem out of your control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

HOW SHOULD I HANDLE THIS???? What should I insist on happening? Can clear coat be reapplied after the wet sand if the existing clear becomes too thin?

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Taking great pictures and documenting this on a public forum is a great way to start. Clear can be re-cleared but most reputable painters are going to want to start over and re-paint both the basecoat and the clearcoat.


The bigger picture is that this is a problem for lots of car owners they just don't know it because they're not into detailing their cars and hanging out on discussion forums.

Keep us updated and I'll make a few phone calls to see if I can dig up some more information on this problem.


:)

Thank you very, very much Mike. I really appreciate the input above and any to follow. The pin holes look exactly like what is on the vette pictured. And they did show up after the first time I polished the hood. I believe I was using Menzerna 106 and 85 and a grey then blue pad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek

I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind. :)

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I guess that ends my suspicion of factory solvent popping or not, Thanks Mike! (I thought so)

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Originally Posted by A4 1.8tqm

IMO if the shop thinks they can get them out with 3000 grit, I wouldn't have them work on my car at all. Good luck :xyxthumbs:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by O.C.Detailing

Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again

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I didn't mean that I think sanding is too aggressive, what I meant was if the shop thinks they can remove these divots by wet sanding with 3000, it shows a lack of knowledge. The defects are through the clear and wet sanding will not improve the situation at all. That's why I wouldn't want them working on my car. Good info though Adam. :xyxthumbs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

...the entire visit was leaning in my favor. Anyhow, the manager is going to call me next week at which time I'll ask point blank, "This is under warranty right?" I mean, I'm still well within my 3yr/36k. It sounded to me like they wanted me to tell them how to proceed.

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Be sure to let us know how it gets handled, good luck!

Here are some more photos if it's helpful . . .
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...&pictureid=372
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...&pictureid=373
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...&pictureid=374

I have some higher resolution pics but they were too large for the AG site upload size restriction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

I have some higher resolution pics but they were too large for the AG site upload size restriction.

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If I'm not mistaken, the pics should just resize on their own when you import them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A4 1.8tqm

If I'm not mistaken, the pics should just resize on their own when you import them.

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It just says, "upload of file failed." They're >2.5Mb which is above the stated maximum size.

**UPDATE**

I dropped off the truck to Toyota this morning so that they could work on the dots in the hood. Toyota takes this kind of work to a local autobody shop. I just got off the phone with the person at the autobody shop who told me that they tried wet sanding and could not remove the dots. He then indicated that the Toyota service manager instructed him to do whatever is necessary to FIX this problem. So he told me that they were going to sand the hood down (not quite to primer or bare metal), seal it for good adhesion, reshoot the color and then clear it followed by a 175&#176; bake.

Sound reasonable and/or correct? I'm not knowledgable of the paining process but nothing stuck out as a red flag to me.

The body shop did indicate to me that he thought it might have been acid rain or something but I just don't buy that as a reason and that it would be that deep. That combined with how I care for my vehicle(s) just doesn't add up. Acid rain is definitly possible considering where I live but I just don't think it would do that kind of damage that quickly AND be isolated to the hood and nowhere else. I swear it looks EXACTLY like the solvent popping photo that Mike posted.

I'm more than pleased with Toyota - maybe they're out to please customers at all costs these days. If it was acid rain, then it's not Toyota's fault.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph16

**UPDATE**


Sound reasonable and/or correct? I'm not knowledgeable of the paining process but nothing stuck out as a red flag to me.

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Thanks for the update. Their process sounds fine and it maybe a little more complicated than what he told you on the phone if they're a reputable shop they you'll get a good paint job out of the deal.

I might have asked about getting an extra coat of clear for any problems in the future, like bird droppings or acid rain etchings, even would have offered to pay for time, labor and materials for the extra coat, while it's in there and all.


I do agree with you in that the problem is not acid rain, I've seen it in too may factory paint jobs and always seemingly on the hood.

Again, thank you for keeping us posted, all to often when ti comes to a cool thread like this we never get the follow-up and there are plenty of forum members that find this thread interesting and it may help others into the future.


:)

**UPDATE AND THANK YOU**

Well, I picked up the truck from Toyota yesterday and the hood looks awesome. NO MORE DOTS! Below are the photos taken at the same time as the dots typically are easiest to see. Even though they are going to cover it under warranty, they now think something "ate" down into the paint. I have my doubts about that and we'll never know for sure. Thank you everyone at AG for your help during this time and thanks to Toyota for standing by their product.

Now what? Do I have to wait the proverbial months before polishing/waxing? Is it still "soft" so I should be extraordinarily careful more so than I would ordinarily be? Should the restriction that my wife cannot drive my truck continue (j/k)? Any suggestions?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...&pictureid=391

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...&pictureid=392

Yes you have to wait a bit for the paint to dry before waxing. I got some body work done and you can tell the difference in the feel of the paint. I am being very gentle to the paint. If you can also leave it parked outside so the new paint can bake on that helps a lot, too.

Congratulations on your successful remedy to the issue and thank you for sharing your story on our forum, this may end up being a guide for others to follow in similar situation.

As for your fresh paint...

You'll find opinions all over the place on this topic and it comes up all the time, here's the nitty gritty...

First, follow the recommendations of the painter or shop manager that returned your car to you, there may be some type of warranty and you don't want to void it on your part by doing something outside of their recommendations.

Second, to my knowledge, there's not a single "Paint Manufacture" that recommend "sealing" the paint before 30 days and most recommend waiting longer, up to 60 and 90 days. Some of this could just be over cautious, but again, to my knowledge, despite what you may read by a forum member, there are not "Paint Manufactures" that recommend sealing the paint before 30 days.

So you can do what you want but do consider what your painter recommends and what the paint manufacture recommends.

As for products that are safe for paint, one product that's been around for decades that's safe for paint is Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze or it's modern twin, M81 Hand Polish.

Neither of these provide protection like a wax or paint sealant, they are mostly for making the paint look good plus they give you something to spread around and wipe off, or in other words they give you something to use and apply to the paint, which will tend to make you happy. (It's something to do to the paint that's safe).

Bot M07 and M81 are kind of fun to apply and wipe off and they do make paint look clear and glossy.

The good news is moder clear coat paints are pretty touch on their own so i f you have to put the car back into service as a daily driver just try to keep it clean and remove any contaminants like a bird dropping as soon as it's discovered.


How to safely remove a dried bird dropping


So keep some clean microfiber polishing cloths in a clean plastic bag or something and keep some spray detailer in the car for emergencies.


:)

Great advice. And I never thought of keeping a spray detailer and mf towel in the vehicle.

Thanks for all the advice throughout this process Mike.:dblthumb2:

***Bump***

7/12/2010
Moved to "Hot Topics" and this thread now has a blue clickable link for a subject for every time the topic of "little holes" or "Pinholes" or "Solvent Pop" comes up on the forum.

It is a common thing to see these little holes in factory paint after machine polishing and the cause is not always known. Page 3 of this thread includes what I've I've seen over the years on this topic and the OP of this thread actually had his hood repainted to fix the issue.

See page 2 of this thread also...

1994 Porsche Detailed for "Operation Comfort" Modeled by Brittany from Stuart, Florida


:)

I've been researching information on solvent pops as it appears I may have them on my 2013 Chevy Avalanche purchased this past August. I first noticed a paint issue on the front bumper cover where it appeared the White Diamond paint had "stretched" and the black plastic was showing through. I stopped by the dealer and they stated they would take care of that issue. I then arrived home and I waxed the truck with OCW and noticed what appeared to be about 20 solvent pops on the hood. That got me to thinking that the hood and bumper cover may have suffered damage and were repainted by the dealership. I understand the dealership does not have to disclose this information to a prospective buyer unless the damage exceeds a certain percentage or dollar amount. I don't have photos and won't have them as I've misplaced my digital camera and frankly it was so cheap it probably wouldn't have shown them anyway. My questions are as follows:

1. After three months will any more solvent pops show up?

2. Since it's a daily driver is it worth the time and trouble to pursue a repaint of the hood? When I say "daily" I really mean "bad weather" since when the sun shines in the Pacific Northwest I drive my Mustang.
Unfortunately I spend more time in my truck!

3. If I do nothing will I have more problems in the future if I polish the truck? Will that expose more of the pop? You really have to look closely to see the pops and if there won't be any problems in the future I'd probably leave it like it is.

Looking forward to your advice.

Can we sticky this? I have this on my brand new 2013 Boss 302, like 500 miles on it new. It's not pitting or from road debris. I also had the same problem show up after polishing my new 2012 GT in grabber blue. I think a lot of people are seeing this with brand new cars after polishing and don't know what it's called and might be freaking out. I know I was.

This isn't addressed in the swirl sticky but it's pretty common.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

I've been researching information on solvent pops as it appears I may have them on my 2013 Chevy Avalanche purchased this past August. I first noticed a paint issue on the front bumper cover where it appeared the White Diamond paint had "stretched" and the black plastic was showing through.

I stopped by the dealer and they stated they would take care of that issue. I then arrived home and I waxed the truck with OCW and noticed what appeared to be about 20 solvent pops on the hood. That got me to thinking that the hood and bumper cover may have suffered damage and were repainted by the dealership.

I understand the dealership does not have to disclose this information to a prospective buyer unless the damage exceeds a certain percentage or dollar amount. I don't have photos and won't have them as I've misplaced my digital camera and frankly it was so cheap it probably wouldn't have shown them anyway.


My questions are as follows:

1. After three months will any more solvent pops show up?

---

Theoretically "no".

The solvent pops happen when the solvent or fumes move through wet paint after spraying to get to the top and leave behind their only little tunnel. Imagine a bubble of air at the bottom of a glass of water moving up to the surface because air is lighter than water. In the case of paint, because the gooey paint is in the process of setting-up, the path the bubble/solvent/gas travels is not filled in and thus the hole or tunnel is left.

What we see on the surface is the opening or hole to the tunnel. The problem is not "on" the surface, the problem is "throughout" the layer of paint, or matrix.



[quote=Paul Mitchell;772374]

2. Since it's a daily driver is it worth the time and trouble to pursue a repaint of the hood? When I say "daily" I really mean "bad weather" since when the sun shines in the Pacific Northwest I drive my Mustang. Unfortunately I spend more time in my truck!

Since it's been over a half a year since you made this post where are you at now with this paint issue? (Sorry, I just now found your post after tracking back to this thread from this thread.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...105-205-a.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

3. If I do nothing will I have more problems in the future if I polish the truck? Will that expose more of the pop?

---

I don't think you'll get more solvent pops or tunnels in the paint but if you polish the paint you "might" uncover more. If you polish the paint you will likely not remove them 100% but just remove more good paint.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

You really have to look closely to see the pops and if there won't be any problems in the future I'd probably leave it like it is.

---

If you haven't done anything to the panel/paint as of today I'd probably let it go...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForceofWill

Can we sticky this? I have this on my brand new 2013 Boss 302, like 500 miles on it new. It's not pitting or from road debris. I also had the same problem show up after polishing my new 2012 GT in grabber blue. I think a lot of people are seeing this with brand new cars after polishing and don't know what it's called and might be freaking out. I know I was.

This isn't addressed in the swirl sticky but it's pretty common.

---

Lots of good in-depth info and conversations is this thread...

Stucked...


:D

Thanks for the reply Mike. I've been involved with a major remodel to a home and just finished it, put it on the market and sold it. I haven't done anything with the truck but need to shortly if I decide to have it repaired.

The dealer sent me to their preferred body shop and the owner says the spots are "fisheyes" and not solvent pops. He says he would sand it down to hopefully remove the fisheyes and re-clear the hood. We also found a spot on a fender that looks like it burned through the clear and he says they can spot repair that one though it's only visible in certain lighting conditions. It's odd because you can't see it in the sunlight but only on a dark cloudy day.

Given these conditions would you just live with the hood and fender as they really doesn't bother me but I would like the bumper sprayed.

Thanks for your time and your reply.

Bump for Mike

In context...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

I've been researching information on solvent pops as it appears I may have them on my 2013 Chevy Avalanche purchased this past August.

I stopped by the dealer and they stated they would take care of that issue. I then arrived home and I waxed the truck with OCW and noticed what appeared to be about 20 solvent pops on the hood.

That got me to thinking that the hood and bumper cover may have suffered damage and were repainted by the dealership.

My questions are as follows:

1. After three months will any more solvent pops show up?

2. Since it's a daily driver is it worth the time and trouble to pursue a repaint of the hood? When I say "daily" I really mean "bad weather" since when the sun shines in the Pacific Northwest I drive my Mustang.
Unfortunately I spend more time in my truck!

3. If I do nothing will I have more problems in the future if I polish the truck? Will that expose more of the pop? You really have to look closely to see the pops and if there won't be any problems in the future I'd probably leave it like it is.

Looking forward to your advice.

---

The above is a recap of the original issue and I answered above too...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

I haven't done anything with the truck but need to shortly if I decide to have it repaired.

The dealer sent me to their preferred body shop and the owner says the spots are "fish eyes" and not solvent pops.

---

To me, this kind of confirms the affected panels were repainted at the dealership because I don't think you can get fish eyes when a vehicle is painted on the assembly line, at least this type of problem would never be the "norm".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

He says he would sand it down to hopefully remove the fish eyes and re-clear the hood.

---

By sanding he's trying to remove whatever the offending substance is that is causing "surface tension", besides sanding he will likely chemically strip the area multiple times and perhaps his shop uses a fish eye eliminator, don't quote me on that as I don't know this guy or his shop practice.

As such, chances are good he can eliminate the fish eyes with some or all of the above steps and assuming they are a quality shop, you'll get back a factory looking finish. If you go this route, let him know you're into detailing and buffing your own cars and ask for an extra coat of clear so you have something to work with into the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

We also found a spot on a fender that looks like it burned through the clear and he says they can spot repair that one though it's only visible in certain lighting conditions.

---

Spot repair means a blend line, of the clear somewhere. To me, if the spot repair include painting up to some type of definitive body line or edge then this is okay, if the blend line ends in the middle of a panel you always have this line or section on the panel where there's original clear and new clear and it never really flows to become "one".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul Mitchell

Given these conditions would you just live with the hood and fender as they really doesn't bother me but I would like the bumper sprayed.

Thanks for your time and your reply.

---

You're call. The fish eyes are not going to get any worse and in my experience, a person has to know where to look and look there in order to see them. You're the kind of person to keep their rigs polished and waxed so I doubt it will be a problem over time.

I'm not a fan of blend lines on panels, on a white daily driver it's less of an issue than it would be on something special interest.


:)

Thanks for the reply Mike. Like you, I thought the panels were probably re-painted due to the fish eyes on the hood and what appears to be a rotary burn on the fender but nobody has yet confessed. I'll probably have them paint only the bumper as the White Diamond is a GM tri-coat color and I hear it's hard to match. I appreciate your expertise and willingness to help me and other AGO members when we have problems with our vehicles.