New Flex XCE How many passes ? - Help needed (Not Flex XCE specific)

New Flex XCE How many passes ? - Help needed (Not Flex XCE specific)



Hi folks, I wonder if someone could guide me in the right direction at all ? I have now got the above machine after putting it off for so long, I have watched all sorts videos and tutorials and have become a little confused between 2 techniques used on the Forensics detailing channel and the one on the Apex Detailing channel on Youtube which i hope someone could explain to me.

On the Forensics channel, he was doing a tutorial on the 3401 VRG on a pretty trashed black VW, he did 6 passes with a medium pad (he said do 90 seconds to 2 minutes per set, but he must have been going much longer than that). Anyway, once he did the first set, not all the defects went away, so he did another set with the same combo and it was then at the right level. My question is, surely you wouldnt want to do that all over the car would you ? Would he have been better off doing another test panel but with a firmer pad to see if that got the damage out in 1 set rather than doing 2 sets with the same pad and compound combo ?

Now on the Apex channel (the bit I'm confused with), he only does 2 passes, checks defect removal and if not enough does another test with a more aggressive pad.

My confusion is why is there such a difference in the number of passes they are both doing per set ?

Confusing the hell out of me.

I hope someone can explain it to me

First off, I take YouTubers with many grains of salt. But you are correct in guessing that maybe a more aggressive pad is in order. Mike likes 6-8 total section passes, Brian from Apex likes 2-4. Me personally, I like 4-6. I also agree with Mike, fire the machine speed to "11" if you will. it cuts faster. I think the better results fall more in line with more section passes, to get the compound/polish you are working with, to cycle through a more appropriate working time. When you go to a class with anyone who knows what they are doing, (Mike Phillips, Renny Doyle, Jason Rose) The term test spot is the most important starting point, when polishing paint. See what works for you, and your skill set. Hope that helps

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Originally Posted by nickyc

Hi folks, I wonder if someone could guide me in the right direction at all ? I have now got the above machine after putting it off for so long, I have watched all sorts videos and tutorials and have become a little confused between 2 techniques used on the Forensics detailing channel and the one on the Apex Detailing channel on Youtube which i hope someone could explain to me.

On the Forensics channel, he was doing a tutorial on the 3401 VRG on a pretty trashed black VW, he did 6 passes with a medium pad (he said do 90 seconds to 2 minutes per set, but he must have been going much longer than that). Anyway, once he did the first set, not all the defects went away, so he did another set with the same combo and it was then at the right level. My question is, surely you wouldnt want to do that all over the car would you ? Would he have been better off doing another test panel but with a firmer pad to see if that got the damage out in 1 set rather than doing 2 sets with the same pad and compound combo ?

Now on the Apex channel (the bit I'm confused with), he only does 2 passes, checks defect removal and if not enough does another test with a more aggressive pad.

My confusion is why is there such a difference in the number of passes they are both doing per set ?

Confusing the hell out of me.

I hope someone can explain it to me

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Long story short, it depends on the car. Each manufacturer is a little different in terms of paint and each car is different in terms of condition. Generally speaking Japanese paints like Honda, Toyota and Subaru, etc. are softer. German are much harder and domestics are in between and of course toss in experience and products used and you'll get what I'm dishing out, an opinion.

Many here will say start with the least aggressive product necessary, etc. and that's generally a good idea. My approach is different. I assess what I'm working on and have been doing this a long time thus I know what products, pad and generally what's needed to reach the goals I'm looking to achieve. That's another factor too. Not everyone wants 100% correction. I won't digress too much there.

When it comes to light to medium issues, I generally can 1-Step things with a light to medium, sometimes a heavy cutting pad. Lake Country, white, orange or then perhaps a B&S Maroon pad respectively if I choose to stay with foam. Work a TEST section and see what it takes. Light swirls and damage, you can move quicker, heavy swirls, perhaps as slow as 1" per second arm movement. You'll know quickly the outcome and if you need 2-4 or say as many as 6 passes. Make sense so far?

My approach on really bad corrections or ones even medium ones where I need to move faster is I simply whip out some blue/purple wool pads and a nice compound. I like CarPro ClearCut with a little HD One mixed in to cut down on the dusting and to help extend working time. It's an amazing combo of products. I can literally breeze through to a full correction in 3-4 passes with that on about any vehicle. Finishes out so well 2-4 more passes with a polish will create a mirror.

IMO honestly, it really doesn't matter if you do a 3-4 pass section with wool and compound or 4-6 passes with a heavy cut foam pad and polish, the end result is you'r removing the same amount / level of clear coat to level-down the imperfections. One just does it quicker than the other but generally mutli step products leave you taking a bit more time and cost because you're having to go over things with another set of pads, products and polish out the final areas.

Again, hope my early morning ramblings make sense. Hundreds of combos to get you there but in the end, I start EVERY Job with a test panel to see what it's going to take to reach my goal which is a percentage of correction based on the existing condition that the customer and I agree upon and once I dial-in my process, the lights move to the side and I can simply spot-check my results.

Good luck, have fun and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by nickyc

New Flex XCE How many passes ? - Help needed (Not Flex XCE specific)


My confusion is why is there such a difference in the number of passes they are both doing per set ?

Confusing the hell out of me.

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Lot's of opinions on what's "right". At the end of the day, if a person has a system that works for them that's all that matters.


Over the years I've had a lot of people tell me I'm a good teacher or trainer... LOTS of guys know how to detail car but that doesn't always mean they are also great teachers. I'm not saying these two YouTube guys are not great teachers as they likely are due to their popularity. I don't watch their videos so I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nickyc

I hope someone can explain it to me

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Recently we've made a number of LIVE detailing class videos where I'm doing and thus demonstrating how to do a proper Section Pass. I wrote the definition for the term Section Pass for this industry so I feel qualified to demonstrate it.


Here's the dedicated article for the technique dated 2017

The Definition of a Section Pass by Mike Phillips


But that article is taken from this article dated 08-17-2009, 04:26 PM

Step-by-Step How-To use the Porter Cable 7424XP

Scan down the thread until you see this picture and BELOW the picture you'll see the original written definition for a section pass.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...detail-116.jpg




Here's an article with a YouTube video from 2010 that shows and explains what a Section Pass is and how to do one


Show Car Garage Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher


And here's the video and the post date for this is March 11th, 2010

https://youtu.be/Q70g83mnTn4



In the above video - Autogeek wanted me to use a 6" backing plate and 6.5" THICK LAKE COUNTRY CCS foam pads and even back then I knew these pads were WAY to THICK for a free spinning random orbital polisher and that's why if you look carefully you see the Porter Cable struggle to maintain pad rotation. :laughing:



Here's the BIG PICTURE - the tool you have is called the SUPA BEAST because it' has a TON of power. This is why I say,

With the BEAST you can power through a detail job

It's true you can buff out a car as fast as humanly possible while created pro quality results. You just need to learn to use it.


Start watching this video at the 26:20 time stamp mark. At this point in the video I buff out half the hood (at one time), and I make 8 SOLID section passes. How you see me moving the polisher over the paint is how you do your section passes.

You would normal tackle a smaller size - especially if you're new to machine polishing. Watch this and in my follow-up post I'll explain what you want to do when doing a Test Spot and then also repeat the Test Spot to the rest of the car.


https://youtu.be/S5ej_Dhb5nM


And if you watch to the 31:40 time stamp mark - I do show you by using a microfiber towel - how large of any are you would NORMALLY tackle.

I tackled an entire half of a hood to show how much power the BEAST has. I also do stuff like this when doing Production Detailing because.... I can.




:)

Okay real simple,


Before buffing out a car you do a Test Spot. The Test Spot is to dial-in a pad, product, tool and technique combination that removes the defects TO YOUR SATISFACTION. If you're buffing out a daily driver you might not care that you get out 100% of each and every scratch. If you're buffing out your TOY or doing show car detailing you still may not get out 100% of the defects because they are TOO DEEP and paint is thin. You have to bring a certain amount of common sense to the table.


Here's the deal. Making one or two section passes to a section of paint is NOT how you buff out paint. You need to work the abrasives, the pad and the action of the tool over the paint ENOUGH to thoroughly and effectively both correct and polish the paint and 2, 3, 4, 5 passes simply is not "polishing paint".

So an arbitrary number BUT a number that encompasses ENOUGH "abrading action" and "polishing action" to get the job done right the first time is a good average of 8 section passes. So when you do your Test Spot, after spreading the product out over the area you're going to buff you then make 8 solid section passes and then wipe-off and inspect. If the defects are gone that's great. Now repeat this same process to the rest of the car dividing larger panels into smaller section.

If the defects are NOT removed to your satisfaction then test a more aggressive product and pad to a new section of paint.

Here's where it gets tricky if your NEW to this because you don't have any experience. The amount of downward pressure you use is different for different tools but also for the different condition of the paint, the hardness or softness of the paint and the arm speed you use to move the tool over the section of paint.

And just to plug my classes - you learn ALL THIS STUFF with all the popular tools on multiple multiple cars. Not demo hoods and you certainly don't sit in a chair and look at the wall. But it's really hard to TEACH this with a keyboard and pixels.


With a free spinning long stroke polisher you only apply a little more pressure than the weight of the tool because it is the LONG STROKE that is creating effective cutting or abrading ability. With short stroke tools like the Porter Cable or ANY of the BEAST family of tools - you press down about 10 pounds of pressure to get great cutting.

Watch the above video and then watch me do and explain a Test Spot in this video and then go out to your garage - find some FLAT panels to practice on and get to work.


https://youtu.be/ulWXODgg8V4


:)