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Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
This is going to be a long one so lets see who makes it to the end :)
As stated in the title of this thread, is Graphene the next evolution of coatings or is all hype?
We have all seen Graphene become the next buzzword in the world of ceramic coatings and all these youtubers praising how great it is as the next big thing while sort of writing off Silicon Dioxide coatings without any further test data. I attribute this to not having time and being sent various products to test out. So I am hoping to provide some feedback that is somewhat useful.
Before I move on I will be referring to Silicon Dioxide coatings as SiO2, quartz or ceramic. All are interchangeable.
At the time I am writing this, it is too soon to tell if Graphene will stick around as these products are in their infancy. Will it fade away in existence or will it survive the test of time like quartz based coatings.
We have a multitude of coatings along with different variations of chemical make up these days. These coatings are tried and true and they are going to stick around for awhile. Graphene has a lot of work ahead to dethrone SiO2.
Next we move onto pricing. Graphene is expensive and thus the product is expensive. At the same time these introductory products probably don’t contain too much Graphene. Again it is an expensive substance.
A known fact is that quartz coatings are prone to water spotting. Not everyone has experienced this issue and those that have get disappointed due to wanting that perfect product. The holy grail. This is where Graphene coatings are claiming anti-water spotting. This may be true but only time will tell if this solves that issue. At the same time the current Graphene coatings are sacrificing hardness. Although not something to really focus on. For example SPS claims 7H while other coatings are claiming 9H and some even 10H.
I originally wrote this review on the SPS Graphene Product sometime ago. Unfortunately I did not have it on long enough to really provide good information on.
Review - SPS Graphene Coating
I then added it as part of my coating test comparing it to other coatings.
2020 Ceramic Coating 1 Year Test
I decided it was time to polish my Grand Prix as the 21 month Cquartz UK 3.0 did it’s job. Such a great coating. I chose to go the SPS Graphene route to get more data and to see how well it would perform long term.
I have a friend of mine who whispered into my ear that IGL is planning to release a Graphene coating through their authorized installer network. This got the wheels turning and asking “what if I use IGL F4 Renew as a primer polish?”. Those of you familiar with the product will come out and say, Mike you are crazy since IGL F4 states it is not to be used a primer polish. This is true. This product would fall in line with something like CarPro Essence. I thought to myself as soon as IGL releases their Graphene coating they are going to come out and say yeah F4 can be used as a primer. I even contacted IGL through facebook asking them if it would work with another Graphene infused product. All they said was no with no real reason. I read the back of the label a few times and IGL states F4 is not to be used as a primer for their Eco Coat coatings. Their eco coat line is all quartz based. Well SPS is not quartz based. So why not use them together is my way of thinking.
This is the end result.
https://www.autogeekonline.net/galle.../IMG_6364a.jpg
So I proceeded with my course of action. I did the normal chemical and mechanical decontamination. Followed that up with Meguiar’s M210 on a Rupes yellow pad using carious Rupes tools. This was more than enough to remove the 21 month Cquartz UK3.0. M210 is impressive on its own and the gloss it was leaving was great. I followed that up with a prep wipe using Meguiar’s M122 Surface Prep. Came back with IGL F4 Renew on a Rupes white pad. Let that set up for a couple minutes after wipe off and then followed up with Meguiar’s M122 to remove any remaining residue without removing the deposited Graphene. Finished it off with two layers of SPS Graphene coating.
The paint was in good shape. I gave myself a pat on the back for keeping the paint virtually swirl free for 21 months. I saw no defects under the Gyeon Prism Plus light on the silver paint. The swirls on the black pillars were minor.
Before on the left and after on the right after using M210 on a Rupes yellow polishing pad. I took advantage of the minor filling from IGL F4 later on.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6332a.jpg
The end result of all this work was a glossy and silky smooth finish.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6408a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6410a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6412a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6414a.jpg
The paint was much brighter under the sun after after polishing and a fresh new coating.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6425a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6428a.jpg
I am going to mention this. This is more of an experiment to see if these two Graphene based products play well together. Detailing in the end involves experimenting with products from time to time. This can sometimes result in a failed experiment or a successful one. I am not concerned with durability or longevity with this combination. We do still have the coating test where SPS is bonded to bare paint.
A few thoughts on the products I used.
Meguiar’s M210 is a very good polish. Easy wipe off and definitely less oils than M205. A little less cut but the finish from it is great.
For IGL F4 Renew, the first thing is swap out the cap. It is terrible. The product itself is thin and rushes out of the cap. IGL needs to get rid of these caps. As far usability it is pretty straightforward. The minor issue is that it can be a pain to remove if it is left to sit too long or if there is excess product say when turning off the polisher. The overall finish is very good and the surface is nice and slick.
SPS Graphene is nice to work with. It does not need long to sit once it can be wiped off. It does not rainbow like a typical coating. The overall finish it leaves behind is silky smooth and it gets even slicker the longer it cures. Think Gtechniq CSL/Exo combo or Gyeon Syncro, either Cquartz coating topped with Gliss, but on another level. It just feels different in a very good way.
Thanks for reading through and stay tuned for updates along the way. I will be maintaining it with the SPS Graphene spray detailer. I also applied SPS to one of my wheels on January 25, 2020 to see how it holds up over time. So far so good.
Application
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaT6Qz4DHPs
Walk around
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT4RcyqAD64
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Great write up. I posted in another FB group about not liking the removal process. I retried it, and although I do not like the dry, wet, dry removal method, it was better the second time. It absolutely does help with water spotting. I have noticed a difference on my wife’s Hoonday. For some odd reason, since moving 5000 feet higher in altitude, I have noticed water spotting to be worse than I was used to in the Midwest. Since applying SPS Graphene, the water spots are virtually non existent, and remove easily. As an installer, it irks me a bit, that you can get the exact same product with a different label and not need to be authorized.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Graphene...for automotive paint Coatings?
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of “b%!+#<?@”!
[OOOPS...meant to say:
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of ”Buckyballs”!]
Bob
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Interested in following along. Love to see new stuff like this but overall, I still enjoy the products I work currently and really haven't seen any downsides to them. Waterspots from hard water out of a garden hose can be an issue but in terms of a vehicle sitting out in the summer rain and having dirt dry on it, I've not had issue and black has been the color I'm doing most of and currently own. My Q50 currently resides in the driveway and Cquartz and Gliss v2 are still going strong on it with no concerns.
Following along though for sure.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FUNX650
Graphene...for automotive paint Coatings?
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of “b%!+#<?@”!
[OOOPS...meant to say:
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of ”Buckyballs”!]
Bob
Dunno if it's the Graphene or other things in the formulation but the Graphene coating I've had on my car since May 2019 has been one of the better coatings I've tried. Very vivid shine, great hydrophobics and self cleaning characteristics, slicker to the touch than most coatings. :shrug:
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Thanks for the review Guz, great job. Don't get me wrong as you have the best looking 99 Pontiac on the planet, but I wish it was black for all of your testing.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BudgetPlan1
Dunno if it's the Graphene or other things in the formulation but the Graphene coating I've had on my car since May 2019 has been one of the better coatings I've tried. Very vivid shine, great hydrophobics and self cleaning characteristics, slicker to the touch than most coatings. :shrug:
Only wish they would make a coating that is hydrophilic be it graphene or not. BTW any problems with water spotting?
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rsurfer
Only wish they would make a coating that is hydrophilic be it graphene or not. BTW any problems with water spotting?
No problem with water spotting but I've never really had that issue, local climate maybe? It is Cleveland though where our river caught fire in the 70's and we still have smog testing in our counties so it's not like this is a 'pure' area [emoji1]
FWIW, I tried a coating last Winter that was noted/marketed as being hydrophilic as opposed to hydrophobic, documentation mentioned it would reduce water spotting but also reduce self-cleaning aspects as well. Documentation was correct...it's rather unexciting.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BudgetPlan1
Dunno if it's the Graphene or other things
in the formulation but the Graphene coating
I've had on my car since May 2019 has been
one of the better coatings I've tried.
Very vivid shine, great hydrophobics and
self cleaning characteristics, slicker to the
touch than most coatings. :shrug:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rsurfer
Only wish they would make a coating
that is hydrophilic be it graphene or not.
Graphite is ‘Hydrophobic’.
•Contrarily:
-According to the latest study published
in the journal ”Advanced Materials”...
Graphene, which is made from graphite,
is actually ‘hydrophilic’.
•Which, IMO, begs the question:
-Should a Coating exhibit the water-behavior
known as Hydrophobicity; then: can it truly
be a genuine Graphene Coating?
Bob
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Billy Baldone
Great write up. I posted in another FB group about not liking the removal process. I retried it, and although I do not like the dry, wet, dry removal method, it was better the second time. It absolutely does help with water spotting. I have noticed a difference on my wife’s Hoonday. For some odd reason, since moving 5000 feet higher in altitude, I have noticed water spotting to be worse than I was used to in the Midwest. Since applying SPS Graphene, the water spots are virtually non existent, and remove easily. As an installer, it irks me a bit, that you can get the exact same product with a different label and not need to be authorized.
Thanks. Dave from Autopia hooked me up with the most recent version which does not require removal with a damp towel. I had no issues with removing it. It does take a little more effort if it sits too long. It does not take long for it to set up.
Thanks for posting feedback on water spotting. I have not had issues with water spotting on coatings so I can't comment on that part.
I understand what you mean about the art de shine stuff being readily available which takes away from SPS. I am not sure how close the formulas are to each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FUNX650
Graphene...for automotive paint Coatings?
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of “b%!+#<?@”!
[OOOPS...meant to say:
Nope. It’s a whole bunch of ”Buckyballs”!]
Bob
Every time I see you post in a topic of coatings it reminds me of this :laughing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpdgHTINik
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTQ B4U
Interested in following along. Love to see new stuff like this but overall, I still enjoy the products I work currently and really haven't seen any downsides to them. Waterspots from hard water out of a garden hose can be an issue but in terms of a vehicle sitting out in the summer rain and having dirt dry on it, I've not had issue and black has been the color I'm doing most of and currently own. My Q50 currently resides in the driveway and Cquartz and Gliss v2 are still going strong on it with no concerns.
Following along though for sure.
I am with you. I have not experienced water spotting with paint coatings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rsurfer
Don't get me wrong as you have the best looking 99 Pontiac on the planet, but I wish it was black for all of your testing.
Thanks but I don't wish that at all haha. For me it is either silver or white or anything in between. No black for me whether it looks good or not.
You can see how this black charger came out when I applied SPS to it.
2017 Dodge Charger Daytona 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rsurfer
Only wish they would make a coating that is hydrophilic be it graphene or not. BTW any problems with water spotting?
Didn't dallas paint correction come out with one? Ammo NYC has their reflex sheet coat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BudgetPlan1
No problem with water spotting but I've never really had that issue, local climate maybe? It is Cleveland though where our river caught fire in the 70's and we still have smog testing in our counties so it's not like this is a 'pure' area [emoji1]
FWIW, I tried a coating last Winter that was noted/marketed as being hydrophilic as opposed to hydrophobic, documentation mentioned it would reduce water spotting but also reduce self-cleaning aspects as well. Documentation was correct...it's rather unexciting.
Thanks for posting about your experience with a hydrophilic coating. Some of like that extreme hydrophobic behavior.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FUNX650
•Contrarily:
-According to the latest study published
in the journal ”Advanced Materials”...
Graphene, which is made from graphite,
is actually ‘hydrophilic’.
•Which, IMO, begs the question:
-Should a Coating exhibit the water-behavior
known as Hydrophobicity; then: can it truly
be a genuine Graphene Coating?
Bob
To bond, or not to bond, that is the question ...
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Guz
Every time I see you post in a topic of
coatings it reminds me of this :laughing:
You think that’s something?
Well get this:
Every time I see you post, regardless the
topic, it reminds me of the following:
‘For some reason, some people find you credible.
I don’t get it; but will definitely exploit it’. :laughing:
Bob
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Guz
[...]
Didn't dallas paint correction come out with one? Ammo NYC has their reflex sheet coat.
[...]
Nah just slightly less hydrophobic. It sounds like semantics but the difference is important imo. A with a hydrophilic product water would stick, like when you hand wash your glassware. Ideally the product would also also be oleophobic and repel oils. A product like this would be visually boring but the best thing to reduce wash induced marring. I think I'll just have to become a youtube chemist and make it myself :D
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Also just because a product has a chemical doesn't mean it's doing the "work". Peek the thread from the new 3D coating that has SiO2 but isn't a "SiO2 coating"
https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ml#post1671222
Sub'd regardless, thank you for testing! At the end of the day we just want stuff that works!
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DetailZeus
I think I'll just have to become a youtube chemist and make it myself :D
Where to you get your degree for this?
:laughing:
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FUNX650
You think that’s something?
Well get this:
Every time I see you post, regardless the
topic, it reminds me of the following:
‘For some reason, some people find you credible.
I don’t get it; but will definitely exploit it’. :laughing:
Bob
Lol I see you didn't take that well and it struck a nerve. I have two simple solutions for you Mr. Bob. Either don't participate in any threads that I start and/or block me and you will never see a post from me on the forum.
I am sure you are familiar with the term haters gonna hate. I found this and maybe I should be thanking you instead.
Why do haters hate?
Criticism is self-hate turned outward. Hate is often a sign of weakness, envy and fear. Haters hate on you because you’re doing what they cannot, will not or are too afraid to attempt.
Haters are a natural part of the growth of your business. When you’re new there will be critics, when you’re good there will be haters, and when you’re excellent they will turn into admirers. The question is: Are you willing to be attacked and criticized as a person to grow your brand?
There is one way to avoid having haters. Sit on the sidelines, do nothing, don’t set goals, be average and no one will judge or hate you.
Criticism and hate are the price you pay for taking your business to the big time. So don’t let the sound of your haters overwhelm you, you only give them power if you listen to what they say. Ignore the noise and use your haters as fuel for the fire. They’re hating you because you’re on to something and are doing big things. In a way they are one of the greatest forms of feedback you can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DetailZeus
Nah just slightly less hydrophobic. It sounds like semantics but the difference is important imo. A with a hydrophilic product water would stick, like when you hand wash your glassware. Ideally the product would also also be oleophobic and repel oils. A product like this would be visually boring but the best thing to reduce wash induced marring. I think I'll just have to become a youtube chemist and make it myself :D
Ah thanks for the explanation. I don't follow the guy or his product line. I am sure you will gain many subscribers doing so :).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DetailZeus
Also just because a product has a chemical doesn't mean it's doing the "work". Peek the thread from the new 3D coating that has SiO2 but isn't a "SiO2 coating"
https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ml#post1671222
Sub'd regardless, thank you for testing! At the end of the day we just want stuff that works!
Well said.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
I saw graphene demonstrated on Forensic Detailing's channel about 4 months ago. I made a mental note to check it out this summer but still have not done so with everything that has been going on.
Are there many companies selling a graphene coating yet or just the SPS one?
What kind of pricing are we looking at per application?
Right now I use 2 coatings : McKee's 37 for my 2 year product and Gtechniq CLS for my 5 year one. McKee's cost almost nothing to use. About 5$ per car. CLS is about 80$ per car. I think the most expensive coatings on the market were from Optimum and Ceramic Pro, might be wrong. Opti-Coat Pro+ was in the 400$ range if I remember correctly. Never asked for pricing for Ceramic-Pro cause I have no interest in their products and company.
Any of you thinking about switching to graphene?
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Billy Baldone
Great write up. I posted in another FB group about not liking the removal process. I retried it, and although I do not like the dry, wet, dry removal method, it was better the second time. It absolutely does help with water spotting. I have noticed a difference on my wife’s Hoonday. For some odd reason, since moving 5000 feet higher in altitude, I have noticed water spotting to be worse than I was used to in the Midwest. Since applying SPS Graphene, the water spots are virtually non existent, and remove easily. As an installer, it irks me a bit, that you can get the exact same product with a different label and not need to be authorized.
What graphene product can u get not being authorized?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nO...000-no-tmp.jpg
As always Mike, great review.
Got a little bit of humor going in this one plus some sheer honesty.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Actually Borophene is probably
the next big thing in Coatings.
Bob
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Calendyr
I saw graphene demonstrated on Forensic Detailing's channel about 4 months ago. I made a mental note to check it out this summer but still have not done so with everything that has been going on.
Are there many companies selling a graphene coating yet or just the SPS one?
What kind of pricing are we looking at per application?
Right now I use 2 coatings : McKee's 37 for my 2 year product and Gtechniq CLS for my 5 year one. McKee's cost almost nothing to use. About 5$ per car. CLS is about 80$ per car. I think the most expensive coatings on the market were from Optimum and Ceramic Pro, might be wrong. Opti-Coat Pro+ was in the 400$ range if I remember correctly. Never asked for pricing for Ceramic-Pro cause I have no interest in their products and company.
Any of you thinking about switching to graphene?
With SPS one has to be authorized to get them. It is as simple as contacting them. I am not allowed to divulge the price on it. There is also waxedshine that offers a self heal graphene coating. This one is also a installer only. I heard this one is rather easy to get approved for.
Then you have Art De Shine which is run by the same folks who operate SPS. One can get their hands on the Art De Shine products. Google them. You are looking at $200 for 30ml of the nano graphene coating which said to be the same as SPS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coatingsarecrack
What graphene product can u get not being authorized?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Google Art De Shine and look at their nano graphene coating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spazzz
As always Mike, great review.
Got a little bit of humor going in this one plus some sheer honesty.
Thanks. I am glad you enjoyed the read.
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Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Looks like Artdeshine is from across the pond and out of stock most places. When I googled it Migliore came up with a graphene coating.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c59bed4be4.jpg
Pretty soon all the big brands will have to follow suit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Calendyr
Any of you thinking about switching to graphene?
Nope. Cquartz and GYEON along with the occasional 22pLe is all I need. I'm not paying $200+ for a bottle of coating that thus far hasn't proven to have anything really unique about it yet.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Depends on time I suppose. With all the coatings around, a lot of people will still use pure carnauba and ceramic coatings definitely still are proven. With graphene, who knows. If it manages to outlast my experiences with ceramic, then maybe.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Here is another uncredible post :laughing:
The car received it's first wash last weekend. This coating is super hydrophobic and to quote waxmode oleophobic. Followed up with the spray detailer after blow drying the car.
The spray detailer like the actual coating has the graphene juice in it. Definitely shake up the bottle due to it settling within the bottle. There is nothing complicated about using this. It is a quick detailer after all that is easy on and easy off. The coating is already slick so the difference is negligible. The gloss under the coating is great and the difference is in gloss is minor at this point. I can say that the spray detailer does not have the same water behavior as the actual coating from testing it earlier in the year on a test panel.
I will say that the slick feeling from this is great.
Low and behold it rained the next morning.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6502a.jpg
Can be used on multiple surfaces and on any forms of protection.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6503a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...IMG_6505a1.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...IMG_6506a1.jpg
Enjoy the super hydrophobic properties after the first wash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT35ClG3RrI&feature=youtu.be
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quick update. Unfortunately Graphene is not the miracle product we all want it to be when it comes to water spotting.
Photos and videos coming in a bit.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
As promised. If we look at the included pamphlet that comes with SPS they clearly state decreases water spot prevention but at the same time water spot prevention.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_4240a.jpg
Unfortunately that is not the case. It appears that water spotting is still going to happen. My hood is peppered in water spots in various areas in various sizes. I was only able to see them under the garage lights. After I finished the video, I took some CarPro Sportless and Optimum MDR and neither of them did anything. Although they never really work that well.
I am one month in with SPS graphene on the paint and topped with the graphene dpray detailer after the first wash.
Examples of what I am referring to.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6757a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6759a.jpg
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler.../IMG_6760a.jpg
Forensic detailing also posted a video on his channel with similar results on the art de shine graphene coating covered in water spots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O0WdiwB2c0&feature=youtu.be
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Good to know. To be honest, I kind of already expected that. Temperature + mineral deposits will always win across a single micron/two micron thickness of anything.
Edit: I think that's why the label says helps decrease waterspot potential versus completely preventing it.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
If I missed it oops, were you able to remove them?
Did any of your past coatings fair better with the power line dilemma?
I would almost think a sealant or wax would handle that condensation mineral spotting better. Have you noticed that scenario in the past?
Looks like you have a frustrating testing site there.
My black car looks like dookie with water spots from rain and trees but surprisingly cleans up nicely with UK on it.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WillSports3
Good to know. To be honest, I kind of already expected that. Temperature + mineral deposits will always win across a single micron/two micron thickness of anything.
Edit: I think that's why the label says helps decrease waterspot potential versus completely preventing it.
You are right. The only nit pick I have is that it contradicts each other. One says water spot prevention and the other says decreases. It is one of the other is what I should have meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spazzz
If I missed it oops, were you able to remove them?
Did any of your past coatings fair better with the power line dilemma?
I would almost think a sealant or wax would handle that condensation mineral spotting better. Have you noticed that scenario in the past?
Looks like you have a frustrating testing site there.
My black car looks like dookie with water spots from rain and trees but surprisingly cleans up nicely with UK on it.
Nope. They are still there. Was curious to try one of the water spot removers and neither of them worked. There must be something in the air for 2020 as this is the first time I have seen this kind of etching on any coating.
I can't recall if I had issues with a sealant. I don't think so but I haven't used one in so long.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Not saying this is you at all, but this was apperantly an issue that happened a lot with waterspots specifically where they were there during the polishing stage but due to the paint expanding the waterspots were hidden and not fully removed so now they are underneath the coating. Not sure if you ever listened to the ammo NYC podcast but they talked about it. Could potentially be the issue here?
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
I don't have water spots as an issue and the paint was spot free when I polished it. But I know what you are talking about.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
art de shine is available in canada.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
I use Art De Shine. I do like it.
Just keep in mind that the graphene coatings of today are only a half step forward ahead of the SiO2 coatings. It's still the same siloxane and silane based coatings, but with an additional additive of graphene and perhaps a different solvent and bonding agent. Any graphene coating is comparable still to a high quality SiO2 coating. It's like comparing a Ford Explorer Limited and a Ford Explorer XLT. Still the same car, a few different doodads.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Adams posted some good information on their product. They made a good point on one of their videos on why they have the word ceramic in their name. They took their ceramic coating and added graphene oxide to the formula. It then becomes another version of a ceramic coating (ie: SiO2, TiO2, SIC, etc..). This was mentioned on the recent Obsessed Garage podcast as well dated 7-31-2020 towards the end about the blender B&B and adding graphene oxide to the ceramic formula.
Why is Graphene still called a Ceramic Coating?
Graphene alone will not form a coating. Period. Graphene is a flat non-reactive plane, it will not form a bond with other things.
Graphene coatings are coatings with graphene molecules grafted onto the ceramic backbone. If you think of the graphic of the graphene oxide, the tails you see sticking up are what is grafted onto the ceramic molecule. The Ceramic molecule bonds with the car, and the graphene portion of the molecule is on top, forming the surface of the coating.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1595608941
What`s The Difference Between Graphene And Traditional Ceramic Coatings?
Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coatings
What are they and Why are they different?
Description:
In the simplest terms, Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating™ and Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Spray Coating™ are best described as evolutions on “traditional” ceramic coating technologies – the term traditional, as of this writing, referring to currently marketed ceramic coating offerings comprised of primarily quartz (SiO2), metal-oxides like titanium-dioxide (TiO2), silicon-carbide (SiC) and many others.
The R&D Process:
When we began formulating our Graphene Ceramic Coatings, we were seeking to improve upon the physical characteristics of our own ceramic coating offerings by providing them with additional hydrophobicity, chemical durability, scratch and mar resistance, gloss, slickness, and ease of application. We were interested in consolidating feedback into advancements in our coating technologies that would yield an even better experience for our customers.
What we determined was that the next frontier was likely to be utilizing technologies around graphene and incorporating this tech into our coatings and process.
To get very technical for a moment, what we’ve developed is a ceramic coating that has been modified via a reduced graphene-oxide (RGO). Graphene, a monolayer of graphite, is able to be oxidatively processed into graphene-oxide (GO) which makes the material vastly easier to process and formulate around. We can then combine this technology with some of the more traditional ceramic coating technologies to further retrofit them with additional properties while utilizing the ceramic coating’s ability to bond this matrix to the surface.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1595623699
Figure 1 – Example of a Graphene-Oxide Matrix.
What we saw in quantitative and qualitative testing, in and out of the lab, was dramatically improved hydrophobic character, increased gloss, higher tensile strength yielding more scratch and mar resistance, and further improved resistivity to water spot etching and detergent washes – often taking in the hundreds of traditional car washes or even thousands of scrubs on our Elcometer Abrasion-Washability tester – See Figure 2.
Hydrophobicity and its Relation to the Self-Cleaning Effect:
The improved hydrophobic character can best be described as a dynamic hydrophobicity. That is to say the contact angle was improved, but only marginally, but the sliding angle of the coating was dramatically lowered – that is the degree of tilt was found to be much less to get movement of water. This has huge ramifications on the effectiveness of the Lotus-Leaf Type “self-cleaning effect” offered by the coating, a primary attribute. The water will be observed to get off the surface much more dramatically than what’s seen on our current coating offerings.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1595623781
Figure 3 – Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating contact angle with Deionized Water.
Compare & Contrast:
The application of Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating™ and Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Spray Coating™ are similar to what you’d expect from our current ceramic coating offerings, with a few key differences. An individual would find that the graphene offerings tend to cure more rapidly, so it some ways it may be found to be less user friendly – particularly in hot and humid climates which will accelerate the cure as well. However, the graphene offerings will also be found to be more highly slick and produce a higher level of gloss as the coating film is thicker due to a higher overall activity level compared to the quartz coatings – some of our highest actives coatings yet! Despite the higher activity, individuals will be surprised to note that the graphene coatings don’t have as harsh of an odor as the quartz coatings too.
One special characteristic we found in development of the graphene coatings were that they have a strong affinity for practically any external automotive surface. We’ve presented the Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating™ and Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Spray Coating™ as multi-surface coatings because they truly were appropriate for all manner of substrates be it paint, wheels, plastic trim, chrome, glass, rubber or metal. This provides additional ease of use to the end user because they are able to coat more surfaces utilizing a single bottle.
Maintenance:
Maintenance for the two types of coating technologies is very similar and the use of SiO2 based protection is still perfectly valid and acceptable as the Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating™ and Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Spray Coating™ still contain SiO2 based ingredients and will interact well to bolster and maintain the finish produced by the coatings.
Adam’s UV Ceramic Glow Technology™:
Thankfully, we were also able to formulate the coatings such that all Adam’s Polishes’ offerings of ceramic coatings have our patent-pending UV Ceramic Glow Technology™ which aids in the application of the coatings and allows visualization of the film post cure to ensure high spots are leveled properly and all surface area is properly coated.
Summary:
Again, it’s best to view Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Coating™ and Adam’s Graphene Ceramic Spray Coating™ as a necessary evolutionary step to ceramic coating technologies and not as simply a “carbon coating”. This is a reduced graphene-oxide system and it’s intended to retrofit traditional quartz-based ceramic coatings with additional functionality and improved physical characteristics.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Someone posted this on facebook and it s a great article by the folks over at Feynlab. I can not post the link but here is the entire article. The bottome portion of the article focuses on graphene. Just to add Feynlab is another company not going the graphene route.
Coating Chemistries, and Differentiating Marketing Terms from Actual Chemistry POSTED ON AUGUST 25, 2020 BY PHILIP COETZEE
At Feynlab, we truly believe we have the best products, and a deeper understanding of chemistry than most of our competitors. Occasionally, a marketing term becomes synonymous with a chemical term, and we get asked when we will release a similar product. It is annoying for us at Feynlab when this happens, as we generally try and stay transparent and realistic about what chemistries we use without giving too much information away. However, it can be difficult for customers to distinguish between true chemistries, and terms that sound good but actually have no scientific backing, or have fundamental scientific flaws in their claims.
What Feynlab coatings are composed of is one of our most frequently asked questions. Inquiries into our chemical’s compositions include: Titanium, Siloxane, Silicon Carbide, Silicon Nitride, Silane, Silica, Graphene, “Ceramic” or “Glass.” The answer is none of our coatings are really based on just one type of chemistry, and the majority of the list above is just marketing buzzwords. We take an integrated approach since all types of chemistry have their advantages and disadvantages. For example, having purely Silane based coatings would limit our chemical scope, which would be an overall disadvantage to our long-term chemical potential. Instead, we start with our base resins, then react them in complementary groups to create a balanced and well-preforming coating that combines elements of the best chemistries.
True chemistry or marketing term?
The best way to answer this question is to go through each term one-by-one.
In general, our argument for many of these “miracle” chemical claims is that if they were true, the inventors would have likely received a Nobel Prize by now. They certainly wouldn’t be hawking this technology in the automotive industry, because there would be far better and more lucrative applications of this technology in other industries if they truly yielded what they claim.
TITANIUM
We don’t get asked about Titanium much anymore, but it was THE buzz word of 2018. If you didn’t have a titanium coating, you only had garbage. The claims were that the products created a “titanium matrix” within the coating. This made it super strong, flame proof and it could easily withstand the lighter strike test (hopefully you all know that this test is a bit of a joke by now). We decided not to indulge in the marketing wave, and tried to educate people when asked about it.
1.) Titanium catalysts; most ceramic coatings contain a catalyst. A catalyst aids curing at room temperature, meaning a certain temperature threshold isn’t required. Titanium catalysts bring the activation energy of the reaction down to below room temperature in silicone type resins. The titanium catalyst does not form part of the coating, and has no functional part in the performance. It’s an inert part of the material that facilitates the curing reaction, and it’s a pretty normal thing to do. We use titanium catalysts in some of our coatings.
2.) Titanium Dioxide Nano-particles (TiO2); TiO2 can block UV while being transparent to visible light. The Nano-particles are also photo-catalytic, which means they break down organic matter in the presence of sun light. This reaction is good for keeping surfaces clean. However, it will also break down the organic parts in a coating significantly reducing its life. So we normally avoid TiO2, unless it’s enhanced to make it non photo-catalytic. There are other nano-particles that are easier to use, and offer better UV resistance on a broader spectrum.
http://www.umich.edu/~chemh215/W15HT...20Titanium.jpg
Titanium isopropoxide catalyst – Leading Question
Summary: Is TITANIUM a real chemistry or a marketing term?
It is a real chemistry, but over emphasis on “titanium” in their product images and branding definitely makes it more of a marketing term in this context.
SILOXANE
Siloxane refers to a group of chemistry Si-O-Si-O chains or matrices. There are many forms of Siloxanes, and you may see them listed as: Polydimethylsiloxane, PDMS, Polysiloxane, Polysiloxane resins, etc. In most complex builds of ceramic coatings, Siloxanes play an important role. They are clear and glossy and, depending on how they are used functionally, can be extremely slick.
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An example of a Polysiloxane resin – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Summary: Is SILOXANE a real chemistry or a marketing term?
It’s 100% a real chemistry, and used very commonly in coating chemistries.
SILICON CARBIDE
Pure Silicone Carbide (SiC) is a very misleading term for this otherwise real chemistry. SiC groups can be formed in a coating by utilizing some of the groups in your Siloxane resin. In the diagram above, you can see that there are “R” groups at the end the matrices. These “R” groups are the utilized groups. It is possible to react a carbon group within “R” groups to create some SiC groups. SiC groups are incredibly chemically resistant. SiC is a good component to have in a coating when it is in the right place in small amounts.
Pure SiC would be black. If one could form Pure SiC from a liquid at room temperature, there would definitely be a Nobel Prize attached to it, because you could use whatever technique you created to do a whole lot of other impossible chemistries.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wqcAA...VpT/s-l500.jpg
Pure Silicon Carbide powder is black
Summary: Is SILICON CARBIDE a real chemistry or a marketing term?
It’s a real chemistry, but similar to the situation with “titanium”, its use in products and the benefits it adds is over stated. However, when used correctly it can add some benefits. For this reason it’s a 50/50 marketing term and real chemistry split.
SILAZANE
Silicon Nitride (SiN) or Silazane, results in a similar outcome to Siloxane. There is just an extra step in the reaction where the Nitrogen gets kicked out, and replaced with an Oxygen to form Siloxanes. SiN is extremely difficult to use during production. Most companies shy away from it, and go the Siloxane route. SiN is an actual chemistry function, and we do see it used as a marketing point-of-difference term.
Summary: Is SILAZANE a real chemistry or a marketing term?
Similar to Siloxanes, it is 100% a real chemistry.
SILANE
Arguably, Silanes don’t make great paint protection coatings on their own, however they are still commonly used. Silanes react incredibly quickly, so they would normally have a short dwell time, and work would have to be done in small sections. The outcome is an extremely slick and hydrophobic coating, unfortunately with poor durability. Silanes are the building blocks of Siloxanes, and other silicone type resins.
Summary: Are SILANES a real chemistry or a marketing term?
Similar to Siloxanes, it is 100% a real chemistry and not a marketing term.
SILICA
In most cases, these terms are just another way to refer to siloxane resins. Silica should really be in the Siloxane group above. However, these terms are also used to describe Slica Nano-particles. Silica Nano-particles can be utilized to create some interesting properties in coatings.
Summary: Is SILICA a real chemistry or a marketing term?
It is 100% a real chemistry but it is sometimes used out of context, and therefore it is a 30/70 ratio of real chemistry and a marketing term respectively.
GRAPHENE
Graphene is the buzzword of 2020, and we are getting a lot of questions about when we will be releasing the “FEYNLAB GRAPHENE” coating. Unfortunately, we won’t be releasing a Graphene coating for automotive paint. We are seeing a similar trend as with Titanium in 2018. It’s the newest marketing term, and people like new!
At the start of this paper, we claimed to have the best understanding of the chemistry used in the industry today. That claim is not just from theory, we try out and experiment with everything, and that is no different with Graphene. We conducted our initial experiments with Graphene in 2015, along with exploring carbon nano tubes and functionalized nano diamonds. The literature showed great potential, especially for the functionalized types of Graphene that have reactive groups.
First, a short description of how companies are making their Graphene coatings. They take Graphene powdered platelets (graphite powder) and mix it into their normal coatings, and they do not try and mislead people about this. They are open about saying they use Graphene in a Polysiloxane coating for example. It’s exceptionally simple to do, there are no adverse reactions, or difficult chemical techniques. It’s just taking a powder and mixing it into a fully formulated coating. This is not unusual, as there are many additives that are added at the end of the process, and Graphene powdered platelets are an additive.
Now back to our experience with Graphene, we realized a fundamental issue. Graphene is unique because it has a large aspect ratio. This means Graphene powder platelets are wafer thin and wide. If we scaled it up, it would be equivalent in size to the layer of grass on a football field, thin but wide. For it to be considered Graphene, the platelets would have to be about 5 micron in width or few nano-meters high. 5 micron is big, and it’s black in color which means it would be visible. Not only in the bottle, but also on the paint. A coating with a 5 micron particle dispersion on paint would absolutely be visible. To give an idea, 5 micron is typically the average size of the abrasive in most polishing compounds. Additionally, 5 microns is typically thicker than most coatings, so the Graphene platelets would most likely be pulled out during the buffing stage. It can be easy to say, “Why don’t you just reduce the Graphene size to nano-scale, so that it would still be colored in the bottle but invisible on the surface, like with other nano-particles?” That’s where the fundamental issue comes in. That can be done, but it would no longer be Graphene. The aspect ratio would be destroyed, and what is left would be carbon black nano-particles. We use carbon black in our FEYNLAB Plastic Black, and it works great for that application. But it’s obviously not recommend for paint.
We still believe that there is potential for Graphene in coatings, but not in thin film coatings for automotive. Graphene requires a thick layer, around the 100 micron mark, to incorporate it. It’s something we may revisit for architectural or industrial applications.
An objective look at some of the claims about Graphene type coatings will show that they don’t make sense.
1.) Improved heat dissipation results in less water spots. One of the advantages of Graphene is Thermal conductivity. It can transfer heat from end to end exceedingly effectively, so if we use our grass analogy from above, it would be very good at transferring heat from one end of the field to the other. In theory, to make a coating that dissipates heat, presumably away from the car, then all the platelets would have to be perfectly perpendicular to the paint and stick upright, which seems unlikely. These films are also extremely thin. The claim that it would have any substantial affect on the thermal conductivity of any surface seems pretty far fetched. Some companies claim “better heat dissipation” from brake calipers when coated. These same companies do flame tests on their hood showing how insulated it is from heat, meaning no heat transfer to paint, thereby no damage. So which one is it? It can’t be both insulated, and transferable.
2.) Increased hydrophobic abilities. This is most likely untrue, there would be equivalent hydrophobic ability in the products before Graphene powder was added.
3.) Graphene coatings form as single thin layer of graphene on the paint. The below illustration shows a Graphene layer being formed on the paint. Similar images are used by companies to illustrate the effect of their product. Unfortunately, however, you will not get this outcome by simply mixing some graphene powdered platelets into your favorite ceramic coating. In fact if you were able to form a single, uniform layer of graphene on the surfaces you would again be in Nobel Prize territory. The applications of that in the electronics industry would be immeasurable.
https://www.feynlab.com/wp-content/u...2-1067x800.jpg
Illustration showing single layer of graphene on a surface – stock imageGraphene coatings are pretty much just your average every day Ceramic Coating with a bit of powder mixed in. We think we are going to see a lot more companies enter the market with a “Graphene coating”, especially since it is really simple to mix in some Graphene powder into a coating. Feynlab will stick to what we know, and avoid flashy trends. There is potential for Graphene in thicker film coatings, but it seems like there are other easier to use nano-particles that will deliver better performance in thin film or “Ceramic” coatings.
Summary: Is GRAPHENE a real chemistry or a marketing term?
Graphene is real, but graphene in thin film hand applied coatings is 100% a marketing term
CERAMIC OR GLASS COATING
We often get asked which type we think is better. Unfortunately, those terms don’t really refer to any type of chemistry. In the US, we normally refer to paint protection coatings as Ceramic coatings, whereas in Japan and the East they are mostly referred to as Glass coatings. It’s interchangeable, and the terms really don’t mean anything. Competitors broadly use these terms for products that form a durable long lasting layer on the paint. And Ceramic is now widely used as a marketing term for a product that is higher performing than a sealant.
Summary: Is CERAMIC OR GLASS COATING a marketing term?
These terms are 100% marketing terms, and don’t actually refer to any specific type of chemistry.
TO CONCLUDE
Unfortunately, some companies are just relabeling their sealants with “Ceramic” in the product name or descriptor. It may be worth starting a trade organization that protects and fully defines the term “Ceramic”, because otherwise it is going to get heavily overused in the market place. Feynlab Ceramic is better than any other on the current market and we are going to protect that integrity. Our Ceramic is of the highest possible caliber and we distinguish ourselves with every car that proudly wears our coating.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
I almost fell in this trap. Was going to throw out some decent money for a graphene infused wax....
Funny how we can all far prey to marketing buzzwords.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
I knew it was all marketing. Same with the 9H bull crap. We all know very well no coating can come close to really being 9H and yet almost every bottle says that because if they don’t, the uninformed person will buy whatever bottle says 9H. Pick a brand you trust and use their coating, regardless of what it’s called.
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Re: Is Graphene the next big thing for coatings?
Thanks for posting the article. So what would be the best explanation for people seeing the increased benefits when using a "graphene" coating such as better resistance to water spotting for example? I admit I was (maybe still am) on the hype train for the very reason of claimed resistance to water spotting. Thanks