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Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Achieving results in less time - Assuming you know how to use both machines professionally and assuming you can use any pad/compound option, it seems as though using a rotary for compounding is still the most efficient way to go. (I am talking about compounding, not finishing.)
For full finish correction then, using a rotary, followed up with a DA for finishing - you yield best results using the least amount of time.
- Please chime in on your thoughts
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
The rotory may have you working backwards given all the new abrasive available today
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mbkite
The rotory may have you working backwards given all the new abrasive available today
Explain -
DA's can either be one of the following, but not both
- Safe, meaning it takes longer to compound as to not go through the clear as fast
- Just as unsafe, or more unsafe if it can compound as fast as a rotary
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Well if you want to leave as much paint on the car as posable a rotory may leave its own damage on the paint that you will need to remove so the trick is to not let that happen. Not real good with links but their is a few good posts in here by Mike P on this subject
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mbkite
Well if you want to leave as much paint on the car as posable a rotory may leave its own damage on the paint that you will need to remove so the trick is to not let that happen. Not real good with links but their is a few good posts in here by Mike P on this subject
Some removal of hazing from a rotary is ok though since this is step 1 - compounding, also, we made the assumption that the handler is proficient with a rotary and knows how to use it without damaging.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Just doing the winter research my self but aiming to up my game in the spring good luck with your project
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
If you know that you are going to do at least 1 more step afterwards then I think yes, using a rotary for compounding is still the most efficient way to go.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Here's something to think about. In your post, you stated that a rotary to compound and then a da to polish will achieve the best result in shortest amount of time. That is probably true. But if I can get the same result with a one step with a long throw and an excellent levelling fluid, then I will have done it in a shorter time.
My point is, a two step compounding and polishing step is the norm for a lot of details but why do two when you can do the same in one? Also what is your ennvironment? Is this body shop work or is this vehicle beautification? A rotary is faster but you are still removing more paint. Why remove more clear then you need to? Forced rotation and long throw are both faster options for a DA but do the job with much less risk and much less paint removal.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WillSports3
Here's something to think about. In your post, you stated that a rotary to compound and then a da to polish will achieve the best result in shortest amount of time. That is probably true. But if I can get the same result with a one step with a long throw and an excellent levelling fluid, then I will have done it in a shorter time.
My point is, a two step compounding and polishing step is the norm for a lot of details but why do two when you can do the same in one? Also what is your ennvironment? Is this body shop work or is this vehicle beautification? A rotary is faster but you are still removing more paint. Why remove more clear then you need to? Forced rotation and long throw are both faster options for a DA but do the job with much less risk and much less paint removal.
If you are doing heavy cut compounding with a DA, you will still have to follow up with a finishing process. I am not talking about easy swirl removal here.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
You need to remove the same amount of clear coat to make a defect disappear no matter if you use a rotary, forced DA, long throw DA or normal DA.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
The new blackfire aio can remove heavy sanding marks so I'm just saying, the technology is there to save time and get good results.
I think it comes down to paint preservation. Leave as much paint on the surface as possible.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DBAILEY
You need to remove the same amount of clear coat to make a defect disappear no matter if you use a rotary, forced DA, long throw DA or normal DA.
Exactly my point. So if it is needing heavy compounding and a 2 step process. A rotary first followed by a DA is the most efficient.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DBAILEY
You need to remove the same amount of clear coat to make a defect disappear no matter if you use a rotary, forced DA, long throw DA or normal DA.
Yes, you are correct. But what I'm saying is because of the speed of a rotary, you will likely level the surfaces to beyond what was needed to correct it.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jslym777
Achieving results in less time - Assuming you know how to use both machines professionally and assuming you can use any pad/compound option, it seems as though using a rotary for compounding is still the most efficient way to go. (I am talking about compounding, not finishing.)
For full finish correction then, using a rotary, followed up with a DA for finishing - you yield best results using the least amount of time.
- Please chime in on your thoughts
There's a million ways to skin a cat....
(Sorry PETA - just a cliché)
When I say there's a million ways to skin a cat, what you use depends on what you want to accomplish plus how much time you want to invest.
A few weeks ago I cut a car using a rotary and finished out with an orbital. My PRIMARY goal was to TEST out two new tools so I could write reviews. My secondary goal was to do my best work possible as that's how I roll in the Autogeek Shire as well as wanting to show the owner my appreciation for him trusting me with his old 2-door passenger car.
Here's those write-ups with pictures that never disappear :laughing:
Review: RUPES BigFoot LHR 19E Rotary Polisher by Mike Phillips at Autogeek
Review: RUPES BIGFOOT MILLE LK 900E by Mike Phillips
Here's another cat I skinned using the FLEX PE14 Rotary Polisher first followed by my buddy Frank using an orbital. The pertinent portion is in post #2 of this thread,
How to wash Ferrari Wheels and Tires
I never was able to get to a "dedicated" write-up for the process used for the paint but I did share the process in post #2
See the text in red
Ferrari finished!
And here's the wheels and tires as well as the completed detail job to this Ferrari.
The paint was machine decontaminated using Nanoskin Autoscrub Pads on Porter Cable 7424XP DA Polishers.
The paint was then machine cut using the Flex PE14 with a wool pad and Uber Compound.
Next the paint was machine polished with the FLEX 3401 with a 5" Hybrid Black Finishing Pad and Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
After compounding and polishing the paint was machine waxed using Wolfgang Fuzion.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...php?file=77094
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...php?file=77095
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...php?file=77096
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...php?file=77097
Here's the skinny....
I tried to cut the paint or "correct" the paint using only the orbital but it wasn't working fast enough or effective enough, meaning I was spending too much time and too much energy trying to remove the deepest swirls and scratches with the FLEX 3401. So instead of continuing down that road I simply switched over to a wool pad on a rotary and made fast work of leveling the paint.
Then Frank followed me with the FLEX 3401 and removed the hologram scratches left by the fibers of the wool pad.
Fast - Efficient - Show Car Quality
:)
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WillSports3
Yes, you are correct. But what I'm saying is because of the speed of a rotary, you will likely level the surfaces to beyond what was needed to correct it.
You are assuming that someone is making a mistake with a rotary but not with a DA. Let's take mistake out of the equation by saying the operator is proficient.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
I am assuming the operator is proficient. I'm just not assuming the operator is perfect. I'm not saying the rotary is not a necessary tool but the rotary really shouldn't be the first thing a detailer goes to, especially on a factory paint job that someone from the dealership has already buzzcut with a rotary.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
A modded 21, 5" plate, xtra cut megs mf pad, m100... Yeah, give me the wool / rotary. I don't want to see bare metal.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
There are times when I do a few test spots and determine my rotary and wool is needed. For example, I might do 2 test spots with my Flex 3401 and increase the aggression with the second test. If the second test is an improvement but not yet enough it's rotary and wool time. The last time in recent memory was a black Cad Escallade swirled to high heaven. The paint was very hard. I also do not remove any more paint than is necessary to level defects. By my 3rd test spot I have a pretty good idea how deep I need to go...safely.
Yup, I could continue with my Flex and work my butt off and get similar results but time IS a factor and there are those times that a rotary and wool are needed. When I do that I have instantly gone to a 2 step job to correct.
I can't remember the last time I needed more than 2 steps to cut and polish. The equipment and abrasives are that good now. They are so good that I am doing a lot of 1 steppers. Most of my work is done with my Flex 3401...whether 1 step or 2. BUT, when faced with hard paint and needing to cut down faster I always reach for my rotary.
And yes, I know how to use both. It's just that the Flex does almost as good as my rotary especially with today's products. "Almost as good" means I need to go rotary to save time ON SOME JOBS.
Having said all that, I agree that on certain jobs I cut with my rotary and refine with my 3401.
Good discussion btw. I enjoy other's perspectives.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Imo Rupes and microfiber/wool beats rotary in terms of cutting power unless you use those 10 inch knitted woolpads. I hardly ever compound with rotary but i sometimes like to finish with it just for fun and change.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joel1979
Imo Rupes and microfiber/wool beats rotary in terms of cutting power unless you use those 10 inch knitted woolpads. I hardly ever compound with rotary but i sometimes like to finish with it just for fun and change.
If this is your claim, then is it correct to say that the Rupes possesses the same or more risk factor as that of a rotary since it has better cutting power?
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jslym777
If this is your claim, then is it correct to say that the Rupes possesses the same or more risk factor as that of a rotary since it has better cutting power?
Well not exactly. Yes you can remove clearcoat much but to burn paint with da is much more unlikely with da because the pad makes two kind motion. With rotary you are only spinning the pad and it creates more heat.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joel1979
Well not exactly. Yes you can remove clearcoat much but to burn paint with da is much more unlikely with da because the pad makes two kind motion. With rotary you are only spinning the pad and it creates more heat.
But now you're assuming again that the rotary operator is making mistakes.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jslym777
But now you're assuming again that the rotary operator is making mistakes.
And you are assuming that the Rupes operator is making mistakes. Cutting paint and burning paint is two different things.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joel1979
And you are assuming that the Rupes operator is making mistakes. Cutting paint and burning paint is two different things.
Im not assuming any mistakes on either side. I said in an earlier post to take ANY error out of the equation and assume the operator is proficient at both tools.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joel1979
Well not exactly. Yes you can remove clearcoat much but to burn paint with da is much more unlikely with da because the pad makes two kind motion. With rotary you are only spinning the pad and it creates more heat.
Burning through paint when cutting with a rotary and wool/lambswool pad is sort of a non issue for those of us proficient with the rotary. Detailers as a whole are not only more educated on proper techniques, but the rotary polishers are now capable of being dialed down to 600rpm's. Also, modern cutting compounds don't dry up as quickly and provide more lubrication which helps to keep the paint cooler throughout the cutting process.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mwoywod
Burning through paint when cutting with a rotary and wool/lambswool pad is sort of a non issue for those of us proficient with the rotary. Detailers as a whole are not only more educated on proper techniques, but the rotary polishers are now capable of being dialed down to 600rpm's. Also, modern cutting compounds don't dry up as quickly and provide more lubrication which helps to keep the paint cooler throughout the cutting process.
I know this and i also have Festool Shinex on my arsenal.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
My main post is to discuss the claims of the DA vs a Rotary in terms of a compound job (2 step) and tool or tool combination that is most efficient, assuming no operator error.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Personally for 2-step compounding jobs I always use rotary and either the LC Lambswool cutting pads or Hybrid Wool pads for my initial cutting step. Because it finishes so well, for my second step I generally use a GG6 and a white polishing pad with HD Polish+.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Well it really depends on how bad the vehicle is honestly, if it's real bad i would just rotary cut it and then da but
if it's not that bad and you want to save clear the da can preety much achieve what a rotary can imo.. but in the end it's honestly just
opinion of what you like and prefer. The da will be the safest and still preety close to the rotary with everything out now a days but
not to say that theres no need for a rotary. Also not everything needs to be cut with a wool pad and rotary or microfiber and a serious cutting agent.
My choice is the da most of the time but do love to use rotary.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jslym777
My main post is to discuss the claims of the DA vs a Rotary in terms of a compound job (2 step) and tool or tool combination that is most efficient, assuming no operator error.
You need to be more specific as to what kind of d/a, and to how It's set up.
You talking random orbital (what orbit stroke?) or forced? You talking microfiber / wool pads and heavy cut compound? New, modern compounds, or old technology.
Give specifics.
It comes off like you already know your answer and are looking for a fight.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
I have a rotary and pretty much never use it. It's in my arsenal just in case I can't do what I need with the DA.
Right now, if you use either a long throw DA like the Rupes 21 or a Forced Rotation DA like the Flex 3401, and you use a microfiber cutting disk with D300 compound, it is very close to what a rotary with wool can do. But it is safer. The one downside is that the microfiber cutting disk wear out really fast. I have not been able to do more than 4 cars with one. Also D300 is very expensive compared to other compounds. So there is a higher cost to the safety.
I have nothing against Rotaries, but for me, I really don't see a reason to take the risk of burning an edge to save what... 30 minutes out of the entire buffing process?
But in the end, I think you should use what you are most comfortable with. If you like using the rotary for paint correcting, then using the DA for polishing, then do that. It's probably the fastest way to go about it if you do a 2 or 3 step correction. In my world 1 step is king. People with daily drivers are usually not interested in having a 2 day correction done.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
21 MKII cuts more than PE-14 and LH19E. Its the fastest tool I own. All tools can get the job done and with the abrasives and pads we have available a rotary is no longer faster.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BT-HDo0DjJa/
I have done many tests rotary vs wool and here is one
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dlc95
You need to be more specific as to what kind of d/a, and to how It's set up.
You talking random orbital (what orbit stroke?) or forced? You talking microfiber / wool pads and heavy cut compound? New, modern compounds, or old technology.
Give specifics.
It comes off like you already know your answer and are looking for a fight.
I said using any combination, as long as were comparing apples to apples for the heavy compounding step.
Any DA, Rupes, Flex, Griots
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Calendyr
I have a rotary and pretty much never use it. It's in my arsenal just in case I can't do what I need with the DA.
Right now, if you use either a long throw DA like the Rupes 21 or a Forced Rotation DA like the Flex 3401, and you use a microfiber cutting disk with D300 compound, it is very close to what a rotary with wool can do. But it is safer. The one downside is that the microfiber cutting disk wear out really fast. I have not been able to do more than 4 cars with one. Also D300 is very expensive compared to other compounds. So there is a higher cost to the safety.
I have nothing against Rotaries, but for me, I really don't see a reason to take the risk of burning an edge to save what... 30 minutes out of the entire buffing process?
But in the end, I think you should use what you are most comfortable with. If you like using the rotary for paint correcting, then using the DA for polishing, then do that. It's probably the fastest way to go about it if you do a 2 or 3 step correction. In my world 1 step is king. People with daily drivers are usually not interested in having a 2 day correction done.
1 - In what case do you use it that you can't achieve results from your DA?
2 - How is it safer if the operator is proficient with each tool and takes all necessary preliminary steps?
3 - We are only talking about 2 step corrections in this discussion (not a one step) because even if you use a heavy cut with microfiber pad, there will still be some DA hazing from this process that you need to finish off.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronin47
21 MKII cuts more than PE-14 and LH19E. Its the fastest tool I own. All tools can get the job done and with the abrasives and pads we have available a rotary is no longer faster.
If it cuts faster than the rotary, then how is it safer?
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jslym777
If it cuts faster than the rotary, then how is it safer?
It can level defects faster without burning paint. Leveling a defect and burning through are two different things, burning is excessive heat which is not related to cut.
Sanding a piece of wood and setting it alight are different things, both generate some form of heat, get the picture?
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronin47
21 MKII cuts more than PE-14 and LH19E. Its the fastest tool I own. All tools can get the job done and with the abrasives and pads we have available a rotary is no longer faster.
Faster than cutting with a rotary? I believe that the 21 MKII offers the more correction than a rotary on open flat panels, but the 21mm orbit still makes it completely impractical for correcting every surface on most modern vehicles. Unless you're working out of a body shop and all the panels are disassembled? If not, I assume you're using a multi-tool approach which for me takes a lot more time.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronin47
It can level defects faster without burning paint. Leveling a defect and burning through are two different things, burning is excessive heat which is not related to cut.
Yeah, i wonder how many times it has to be said.
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Re: Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joel1979
I would always expect to do a second step after using a wool pad on a rotary, so this doesn't follow my chain of discussion, nor does it show an even comparison. I would always agree that if it is light polishing a single step is the way to go. But, what we are talking about here is heavy compounding (two step process).