Question for our in-house woodworker peeps

[dgage]

From my reading, I was under the impression sinking screws into end grain actually isn’t as strong due to how the fibers in the wood run? Like screwing into the end of a box of straws. Also from what I’ve read (granted, from the internet), pocket screws actually have quite a high holding capacity in all but one direction. I’m not too worried about that one weak direction as for a queen size bed constructed as above I feel like there should be plenty of material/fasteners/glue to keep it sturdy.

You are correct that a long-grain to end-grain joint isn’t as strong as joining long-grain to long-grain. But is it strong enough? It is strong enough if you use longer coarse screws. And really, all you’re doing with the screws is clamping until the glue dries. Today’s glues are stronger than the wood such that when you go to break it, the joint usually won’t break, it will break in the wood grain. And for PL Premium 3X, and we use it for our commercial home theater subwoofers, we let it cure for 24 hours before we remove the clamps. We do not use fasteners at all, just the glue, and we’ve had no issues at all. And our subs are 18” and 24” driven by 4,000 continuous watts so the enclosures deal with some force.

[2black1s]

Hey! We haven't heard from our resident technical expert, Mike, yet.

What do you think Mike?

LOL.

[dgage]

To backup my screw as clamping system claim, take a look at the Miller Dowel System, which is a long stepped dowel that goes into end grain for joinery. No screws, only glue but you would need clamps or screws as clamps. That is a fairly inexpensive system that would work well and would not leave any hardware showing.

[djhassey]

For the original topic, I don't think I'd do anything other than the sanding your implied. It's inside your home unless you plan on sleeping outdoors. You're always have some wood movement, even the stained and varnished floors. But if you're really concerned, use an exterior stain meant for fences and decks. Since color is no object, you could probably get a deal on something unsaleable at your local Home Depot. I have a bedroom set that was a wedding gift to my grandparents. It's over 100 years old and it only has the original stain finish. It may have had a linseed oil or similar applied originally, but it's never been refinished.

[dgage]

For the original topic, I don't think I'd do anything other than the sanding your implied. It's inside your home unless you plan on sleeping outdoors. You're always have some wood movement, even the stained and varnished floors. But if you're really concerned, use an exterior stain meant for fences and decks. Since color is no object, you could probably get a deal on something unsaleable at your local Home Depot. I have a bedroom set that was a wedding gift to my grandparents. It's over 100 years old and it only has the original stain finish. It may have had a linseed oil or similar applied originally, but it's never been refinished.

Normal finishes whether interior or exterior won't completely seal the wood, so like you said, you're going to get seasonal wood movement unless you completely seal it which would require something like epoxy, which would block the air getting to the wood fibers. But the main reason I was going to comment is that 100 year old growth wood doesn't compare to today's fast growth wood. Kiln dried helps but if a piece of wood is going to warp, there's nothing you can do about it. But I agree, just build it and move on. It will likely be just fine.

[ducksfan]

"... if a piece of wood is going to warp, there's nothing you can do about it."

Not trying to be argumentative; just educational. There are things you can do. not always practical, but...

1) Learn how to read grain

2) Understand the concept of trying to always have at least three attachment points to a board.

3) A cement soaked board typically won't warp

[dgage]

I wouldn’t have said it will be just fine if the movement couldn’t be overcome. But cement covered board? Really. At least you did say not practical.

[ducksfan]

I wouldn’t have said it will be just fine if the movement couldn’t be overcome. But cement covered board? Really. At least you did say not practical.

No intention to attack you.

And I didn't say cement covered board. Cement soaked board - as in a board that has been used as a concrete form board.

As I said, the post wasn't directed at you, as much as just a general post on the subject of wood warpage. I'm willing to bet that a lot of posters on this board don't realize that a cement soaked form board won't warp. Comes in handy for exterior wood projects.

[dgage]

Well I’ve had cement soaked board before for small projects but limited experience. And I only get cement on one side of those boards so I’d think they’d be more prone to warping. But I guess if they are used enough and are forced straight and get cement on both sides, I could see how they might then be stable. But as you said, that isn’t practical and not something I’d want to use for furniture.

[oneheadlite]

...Your understanding of pocket screws vs. straight screws into end grain is spot-on.

The PL Premium gives you plenty of working time. 30-40 minutes easy in which time you can reposition or tweak the joints if necessary. I give it a minimum of a few hours (overnight preferable) before handling or un-clamping, although that time isn't necessary in your case as the joints will be screwed.

Suggestion... Drill all of your screw holes and completely assemble your frame before applying any glue. This is called a dry-fit and insures everything fits properly before you permanently glue anything. Then disassemble (sometimes depending on the project I'll do this one joint at a time), apply the glue, and reassemble. Another benefit to pre-drilling/pre-assembly is that joints which are glued can be difficult to keep aligned during drilling/assembly as the joint will slip and slide on the glue. Pre-drilling/pre-assembly will help you to minimize this issue.

Glad to hear I'm not totally off-base with my Pocket Screw understanding. Typically I do much longer research on something before jumping in, but due to time constraints (new mattress has been ordered), it's been a bit of a blitz-self-education.

Also good info on the preassembly. I've been going back and forth on that - originally I was thinking I'd forgo it as I wanted to retain as much thread strength of the freshly installed screws as possible. (Obviously care will be taken to not over-tighten hardware at any phase). But in light of the conversation here, it's clear I have been under-crediting how much work the glue is going to be doing.

I was planning on picking up a 90 degree clamp or two to help hold things steady.

And finally, although you're probably already aware, be sure to restrain the frame "square" and "flat" until the glue is cured.

If all goes well, that shouldn't be an issue - as long as I can get the frame done before the mattress arrives, it'll hang out and cure downstairs.

dgage - Thanks for sharing on your enclosure builds. Really helps drive home the strength of the glue!