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Thread: Toyota Supra

  1. #61
    Senior Member Klasse Act's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Saw the Supra, still don't like it and asked 2 groups of random people about and they agreed it shouldn't have been called S U P R A.

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Desertnate's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Quote Originally Posted by Klasse Act View Post
    Saw the Supra, still don't like it and asked 2 groups of random people about and they agreed it shouldn't have been called S U P R A.

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    There seems not be any good looking designs coming out of Japan other than the LC500, none from the US, and very few from Europe these days. If buying anything modern, I'll simply resign myself to focus on performance and driving experience first and then hope I don't find the car horribly ugly.

    I just hope all the bad response to this vehicle doesn't make it the last of the modern Japanese sports cars. The BRZ/86 platform supposedly will have one more generation, but continuing very slow sales will probably lead to that generation being the last. Nissan has already given up and simply keeps selling old platforms designed over a decade ago. I seriously doubt they will be sold much longer. Mazda's Miata is the only bright spot in the bunch, but it's more of a classic roadster than a mid-level sports car.

    I know I might sound like a broken record, but performance car enthusiasts in the US market have to get past notions of tradition, origin, badges, and nostalgia surrounding previous generations of a vehicle. The days we can do that are long gone and as the buyers of performance cars continue to fade away and the general public continues to buy automotive transportation appliances. The partnerships and cross pollination of parts will be the only thing which keeps any fun car on the market. Combined efforts by the likes of Mazda/Fiat, Aston Martin/Mercedes, Porsche/Audi/Lamborghini/VW, BMW/Toyota, Toyota/Subaru, Alfa/Maserati/Ferrari/Fiat will be the only thing keeping the hyper-niche market of sports cars from disappearing completely. I'm afraid we'll all be mourning the extinction of the affordable sports car in the not-distant future. Buy one now while you can.

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  4. #63
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    I think the name celica was/is too soft for this car so I imagine thatís why they used Supra. Although they could have used a different new name all together

    I kinda like it. Looks good in commercial, sounds good in commercial

    Itís not a high sales car they know that going in. 2 door cars in general are poor sellers now a days.

    Many companies work together for power train items. They cost a lot to R&D but that said and others I think mentioned it they have Lexus parts they could have used

    Maybe cheaper to buy the bmw stuff or it just fit the platform size they were looking at. I havenít researched anything about the car and how it came to life as itís not really anything I could justify as a dad with 2 toddlers. Heck maybe bmw came to them and asked for money to have the rights to use it on a vehicle. Could have been execs that knew each other etc

    I love the conversation about it. I donít think itís stealing any stinger business or is meant too. More just that small niche market and a few previous Supra owners that may have money and desire for that car like that again




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  5. #64
    Senior Member Desertnate's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Quote Originally Posted by MattPersman View Post

    Many companies work together for power train items. They cost a lot to R&D but that said and others I think mentioned it they have Lexus parts they could have used

    Maybe cheaper to buy the bmw stuff or it just fit the platform size they were looking at. I havenít researched anything about the car and how it came to life as itís not really anything I could justify as a dad with 2 toddlers. Heck maybe bmw came to them and asked for money to have the rights to use it on a vehicle. Could have been execs that knew each other etc
    The conversation was centered around the engine. Toyota knew they needed/wanted another inline-six like the previous Supra, but didn't have the engine in-house, so they went to the one place still making them: BMW.

    Toyota Explains Why The New Supra Is Powered By BMW
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  6. #65
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Quote Originally Posted by Desertnate View Post
    The conversation was centered around the engine. Toyota knew they needed/wanted another inline-six like the previous Supra, but didn't have the engine in-house, so they went to the one place still making them: BMW.

    Toyota Explains Why The New Supra Is Powered By BMW
    Any reason or excuse Toyota gives is weak. There's no reason why they couldn't have built a new version of the MKIV motor, which is a monster. The could've easily built upon the old motor with improvements or could've even put the same motor in and people would be thrilled. The point is they took major steps backwards from a mid 90's car when they could've created a new legend. BTW they can no longer tout that Toyota reliability anymore either.

    Lexus has a few cars that could have been a better setup for a new Supra. A toned down LFA would've even worked.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Desertnate's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    The reasoning goes back to economics and the LFA is a great example.

    Despite the LFA being sold for around $400K, Lexus only built 500 and at least 12 in the US never sold. They are still at dealerships today (Jalopnik actually found them). Toyota/Lexus lost money on every LFA they sold, rumor has it the amount was $300~$800K per car. I can't see Toyota taking those kinds of financial risks in today's economic environment. Best case the car will never sell in numbers which would make enough money to cover development costs. Sales margins on cars are VERY small. This isn't an F-150.

    I doubt the old MKIV engine would be able to meet modern emissions and fuel economy standards required by auto makers. I also doubt the tooling used to make the original engine still exists at Toyota. It was probably destroyed or sold off once production ended. Any engine development, even if based on previous designs would have to be a clean slate. To keep engine development in-house you would have ended up with the V-6 used in the IS or Camary which is not real thrilling, or a huge heavy V-8 from the GS-F, RC-F, or LS.

    I have to admit our Toyota has been VERY reliable. Our Highlander has 220K miles with only one small electrical fault. It still runs strong and I don't see why we won't get at least 350K out of it.

    I ask this question without any snark, but actually like to know people's thoughts: What about the suspension being BMW or the ZF transmission? Neither of those are Toyota either, but I haven't heard any complaints. The 8-speed ZF is used in tons of vehicles all over the world, i.e. Jeep, Chrysler, BMW, Audi, Fiat, etc. The transmission is a real charmer for a slush-box and drives of the prototype Supra and production Z4 have been really positive regarding handling and ride.
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  8. #67
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Well doubting isn't knowing, that's why I said an updated version or at least a new in house version, they've have a couple decades to work on it. The suspension isn't as important as the motor, but the tranny does matter since these cars are inevitably modded so how much they can hold matters. Like I said before though, it's clearly aimed at the Z4/FRS crowd and not the Supra crowd.

    Non JDM guys won't care as much as JDM guys, especially from the cars of the 90's. Japanese parts were as important as OEM parts, probably more so.

  9. #68
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    I don't mind Toyota wanting to keep tradition with the inline-6, my gripe (though it's a mild one) is the reliability aspect. As an owner of a n54 335i I know first hand how "finicki" BMW power trains can be. Having said that I agree its probably under-rated and will be easily tuned out to make really nice power numbers. I just think that from a reliability perspective Toyota could have gone with a detuned version of the twin turbo 3.5 v6 found in the new LS. Rumor has it it will be the heart of an upcoming IS-F, could be they were worried about cannibalizing future RC-F sales if it lives on and also gets the TTV6.......

  10. #69
    Senior Member Klasse Act's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    I respect WHY they did an inline 6 but its not just the engine here, that's the thing! It also goes into the interior as well. People want Toyota and if given the chance to do this all over again, I bet they'd drop that blown 3.5 V6 into that car they use in the Evora 430 and call it a day, makes you wonder.....?
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  11. #70
    Senior Member Desertnate's Avatar
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    Re: Toyota Supra

    Quote Originally Posted by jkrig View Post
    I don't mind Toyota wanting to keep tradition with the inline-6, my gripe (though it's a mild one) is the reliability aspect. As an owner of a n54 335i I know first hand how "finicki" BMW power trains can be. Having said that I agree its probably under-rated and will be easily tuned out to make really nice power numbers. I just think that from a reliability perspective Toyota could have gone with a detuned version of the twin turbo 3.5 v6 found in the new LS. Rumor has it it will be the heart of an upcoming IS-F, could be they were worried about cannibalizing future RC-F sales if it lives on and also gets the TTV6.......
    From talking to owners of newer BMW's the N55 and the B58 (in the Supra) inline-6's are much more reliable and robust than the N54 which most admit wasn't BMW's finest hour.

    I hope the IS-F does come to pass. The IS 350 isn't all bad, it's just in dire need of a better engine, better transmission, and a diet. Ditching the AWD drive train would be a good idea while they're at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klasse Act View Post
    I respect WHY they did an inline 6 but its not just the engine here, that's the thing! It also goes into the interior as well. People want Toyota and if given the chance to do this all over again, I bet they'd drop that blown 3.5 V6 into that car they use in the Evora 430 and call it a day, makes you wonder.....?
    Sadly Toyota really doesn't provide much of the Lotus engine beyond the block and basic parts. Lotus adds the blower, totally different engine management, and completely re-tunes it. They'd almost have to buy that engine back from Lotus after it is done, or have another partnership and we'd be having the discussion about the engine being from Lotus rather than BMW.

    Going with one of their own V-6's probably would have driven them back to building their own, unique platform since the BMW architecture was designed around an inline 6. Besides packaging, the V-8's were probably too big and heavy to work in a car that size; it would have destroyed the weight balance.

    I think all these discussion come back around to the fact the Japanese automakers are no longer willing to go "all-in" on performance cars like they once did. The president of Toyota is a real gear head and a huge racing fan, but that still isn't enough to go totally solo on a sports car.

    As a child of the 80's I have fond memories of RX-7's, Nissan Z-cars, Celica, Supra, and most of all the MR-2...I still weep for the passing of the MK2 MR-2. My bedroom walls were covered with 911's, 944's, M-3's, and Countaches, but I knew I'd probably never own one and it would be one of the Japanese cars in my driveway. Too bad those good Japanese cars are all gone today. While not a true JDM car in the eyes of many, at least the Supra gives the Japanese the opportunity to compete in putting a fun driving car in my driveway once again.

    EDIT: Maybe they should have just called this an MR-2! Though some would have been upset it wasn't mid-engined...
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