POLL - What's the number one most important factor when it comes to polishing paint?

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Here's what I do know... all the technique in the world won't product good results if you're using products that use antiquated abrasive technology.

It could be that all the majority of people that think technique is number one have only used a good products in the past. Nothing wrong with that. I'm going on 30 years of detailing cars and I know first hand from using dozens of brands for compounds, polishes and cleaner/waxes, that not everything out works great. Thus all the technique in the world doesn't matter because technique isn't touching the paint. The abrasives are.

Im right there with you Mike.

I can bring in all my FLEX tools, Lake Country Hybrids pads, and use technique to polish paint at work but all this going for me wont give me the results I am after when I am using rocks in a bottle compound. Believe me, we have the 3M polish line up with the technology from 15 years ago or longer.

Switch out to the new Menzerna products and damn what a difference abrasive technology makes.

[kkritsilas]

That can be flipped around as well.Take an experienced professional detailer, who knows exactly how to use a PC/DA, and the lowest end of high quality product, say Meguiars Ulitmate Compound, Polish and Wax, and have them do a 3 step correction/polish and wax. They will most likely get outstanding results.

Take a newbie (like me) give them the best polisher available (Flex 3401, Rupes Bigfoot, GG BOSS, or whatever you believe to be the best polisher. Give them the highest quality polishes/compounds/waxes (LSP). Let them work on a car with the same paint (in terms of defects, colour and hardness). Let them work on the paint as long as they want.

How much do you want to bet that the pro, with a low end polisher, and high quality, but fairly low end products, ends up with a better result? Not to mention that they do it faster and a more complete job?

Both Mike's have good points. IT is the abrasives that do the job, and products with 15 year old technology are inferior to current products. However, so some extent, this misses the point. Abrasives, in and of themselves do not do a thing. They need to be pushed around with a variety of pressures, orbital/rotational speeds, and arm speeds to work properly. Technique is what does that, and allows the abilities of the products to work as well as they can. As for the 15 year old technology statement, is is completely true. However, in the detailing world, I don't see a lot of products with 15 year old technology, outside of the 3M line. Whether it be Meguiars, Mothers, Sonax, Menzerna, Pinnacle, Griot's Garage, Wolfgang, CarPro, 3D, Ultima, Optimum, or almost any other high quality product vendor, their products are constantly being improved. Within the high quality brands, if somebody has good technique, they will get good results. Some vendor's products may be better suited to a particular polisher, or environmental condition, but a person with good technique should be able to get good to great results with any vendor's products. Conversely, somebody with sloppy/bad technique, no matter how high a quality product they are using, won't get results nearly as good.

[Mike Phillips]

Both Mike's have good points. IT is the abrasives that do the job, and products with 15 year old technology are inferior to current products. However, so some extent, this misses the point. Abrasives, in and of themselves do not do a thing.

Nice post but I've used products that work and products that don't work.

I have pictures of micro-marring by products that don't work that would make your skin crawl. (if you're a detailer).


If the abrasive technology is old and outdated and doesn't work, i.e. it leaves it's own marks in the paint, then all the technique in the world won't change that. Switching to a different tool won't fix it and pad choice won't help either.

It really does start with what is touching the paint. Keep in mind, I've been in this business going on 30 years and in most cases, I've probably used and/or tested more compounds and polishes than most people and I do all my testing on black paint.

[kkritsilas]

I don't doubt that there are products that don't work at all or work badly. I remember back in the 1960s/1970s, the car parts stores used to have Turtle Wax rubbing compound. I don't know why it was on the market, because it didn't actually do any good. It actually harmed the paint more than it helped, and this was by hand. Some of the 3M products are about as bad.

However, using modern products from higher end vendors (pretty much any vendor on Autogeek), I doubt that an experienced detailer will have any difficulty getting a great end result, assuming the products don't have any quality control issues. I don't believe that there is one vendor that is so much better than all of the others (on Autogeek) that they can produce significantly better results than other vendors. The detailing market would quickly move to that one vendor, forcing the other vendors to either catch up/improve or go out of business. Do not get me wrong, some vendor's products may require multiple passes where another vendor may only need one; or one vendors product may work better with a DA vs. a Flex 3401 or rotary than other vendors, or it may be easier to wipe off, or have a longer working time/dust less, or work better on hard clear cost than soft clear coat, but a good detailer can work with all of the high end products and get a good end result. Newbies may not be able to, even though they are using the same product. The newbie may not work the product for the full amount of time, may not prime their pads properly, or may work the product longer than is optimal, or their arms motion could be too high/too low/inconsistent, and due to those factors, will not achieve as good a result as the pro.

I look at it this way: Take the greatest, most advanced abrasive technology in a compound or polish. Put it on a panel. Is it doing anything but sitting there? Is there any correcting/polishing going on? No. Take a lesser but still modern compound/polish, put is on a DA/3401/rotary polisher in the hands of good detailer, and let him get to work. How much correction/detailing is going on now? Abrasives, like the DA/3401/rotary, are just tools. It is how those tools are used that determines the end result.

As for the bad products of the past, they are the past. That is why they are not around now (with the possible exception of the 3M line). I have no doubt that products have improved over the last 30 years. But there are really no 30 year old products that can be bought right now (exception may be Meguitar's #7), so putting the products of 10, 20, 30 years ago into the discussion, while interesting from a historical perspective, really doesn't reflect today's situation. 30 years ago, the only machine polishers were the rotaries and maybe the Cyclo. The PC wasn't even in use yet, and all the abrasives were "rocks in a bottle". However, today, there are very few, if any, high quality products that would fit the "rocks in a bottle" description (mostly the heaviest cut compounds/swirl removers, if that). Time moves on, almost all high quality vendors make more than acceptable abrasives that finish better than anybody would have imagined 30 years ago. Using products like this, the only thing that will determine how good an ed result is, is technique.

[Mike Phillips]

I don't doubt that there are products that don't work at all or work badly.

And this was kind of the point of the poll.


What if you don't get to pick your product?

What if I brought you a swirled-out black car and in this scenario, the paint CAN be fixed. So if you or anyone taking this poll have a black car that can be corrected, and you DON'T get to pick your products, pads or tools.

What's the most important factor?

[kkritsilas]

That would depend on the product. If you forced a 30-40 year old compound. polisher or pad to be used, it might be the abrasive that mattered. I still think a pro detailer, using that same tools/products as the newbie, will get better results, no matter if they are both using current tools products or 30 year old products. If you used a modern high quality compounds, it would be technique. If you are comparing 30 year old compounds/tools to modern tools, again, this is an unrealistic comparison. The compounds of 30 years ago were not formulated with clear coat paints, or DAs/Flex 3401s in mind, as there were next to no clear coat paints around, nor DAs/Flex 3401s.Today, even the most inexpensive cars have clear coat paint. So, if the comparison is 30 year old product vs. modern product, then yes, abrasives. However, it is a blatantly unfair comparison, as the 30 year products were not made for today's clear coat paint formulations or tools, and technology has moved on (DAT and SMAT abrasives, DA polishers, better pads). IF this is an apples to apples comparison, say a pro detailer and a newbie, both using the same products/tools, whether they be 30 years old, or modern, high quality products, then technique. I have zero doubt that fi you or Mike of Detailed Perfection were given 30 year old tools/products, and I were given the same 30 year old tools/products, both of you would get better results than I would. If you and Mike were given 30 year old tools/products, and I were given modern high quality tools/products, I may, but probably not, get better results. If you and Mike were given modern, high quality tools/products, and I were given the same, you and Mike would easily end up with better results. It doesn't matter which high quality tools/compounds were to be given out. They may be different modern, high quality modern compounds and tools; you and Mike would end up with better results.

However, yours is a very contrived situation, and somewhat unrealistic if you are talking about giving out old tools/compounds for the contest/comparison. Very few people have even 10 year old compounds/polishes available, and they are not able to be bought (exception may be 3M) without a serious search, not to mention that the 30 year old product is probably past its best before date, and it would be a significant waste of time (why would you search out a questionable 30 year old product when a perfectly usable product is readily available?) If the products are reasonably modern, say 5 years or less old, it is still technique. Any detailer, whether pro or home/DIY will not willingly buy a product that is 10 years of age or older, as there is no reason to.

And I would not approach this in any way, because I am new. I am still in the process of screwing up my own cars paint, so would like to finish the process of screwing up my own paint, then (hopefully) figuring out how to fix it, before I would even think of screwing up anybody else's.

[Mike Phillips]

However, yours is a very contrived situation, and somewhat unrealistic.

Not really. It's pretty common for people to be using products that dont' use great abrasive technology today.

Here's what I know and I've been doing this as long as most and longer than many.... the most imporant factor when it comes to polishing paint is the stuff that's actualy touching the paint.


Everything else is secondary.

Paint is thin, don't skimp on compounds, polishes and even cleaner/waxes.

[kkritsilas]

No disagreement there. However, I think that any good/great detailer can get good results using any of the products sold on Autogeek. Newbies like me probably won't get the same results, simply because our skill level is so way below the pro detailers. I don't think that i matters to a pro detailer that they are using Pinnacle, Wolfgang, Optimym, Menzerna, or any other high quality product, they have the skills to recognize what the product is doing, and compensate accordingly and almost automatically. Newbies don't. Not saying that the pro detailers don't have preferences for a variety of reasons, but even if not using their preferred product, they can get great results (may take longer, or wipe off may be harder).

Don't skimp on products is very true. But don't skimp or pads, don't skimp on a machine, and don't skump on microfiber towels, either. Keep stuff clean (pads, microfiber, and machines, for that matter).

[Dandy98]

Coming from 35+ years solely in the abrasive business I favored abrasives. If you do not have uninform mineral displacement that is consistent with every yard of sandpaper coated no matter your skill set you will be working longer and harder to get the inconsistent finishes out in the next step. No matter what pads, speeds techniques are used. Also as an FYI products that are P graded are slightly coarser from grade 80 up through the finest grade coated. Also silicon carbide fractures and wears more consistently than aluminum oxide minerals. AO however lasts longer but will produce a wider scratch pattern. Usually from 600 silicon carbide on up to 2500 s/c as an example are best for any paint system , clear coat or base coat. Always use a random orbital sander at 10,000 rpm with 3/16 or less orbit. A clean soft foam pad that can follow the undulations and shapes of a hood as an example. An interface pad may be required ic contours are deep. The same applies for hand sanding. Never finger sand as the end result is putting actual finger grooves in the paint. The pad must be clean in either case. If anything is left on the pad the result is inconsistent finish. The smallest particle of dirt left on the pad will leave swirl marks and inconsistent finish. Nuff said for now.

[kkritsilas]

You are making an assumption that there are significant differences between the various modern high end polishes that are available on Autogeek. In the abrasives world, that would be like saying that 3M's 600 grit silicon carbide sandpaper is significantly better or worse than Norton's 600 grit silicon carbide sandpaper. I don't think that is the case. SImilarly, that the compound and polish of say, Menzerna is better/worse than Pinnacle. I don't think that is true, either. In both cases, good/great results are available if the products are used properly. There will be differences in the way the samdpapers, or more importantly, the polishes/compounds need to be used to get those good/great results. This is where the pro woodworker or pro detaiiler comes in. In both cases, they can use the materials to their greatest advantage. Using your analogy, for the pro woodworker above. He will know exactly what type of backing plate, interface pad (in terms of hardness), and speeds to use. A less experienced user may use am interface pad that is too hard or too soft, or may use a speed that is too slow or too fast. In the detailing world, give a pro detailer a modern, high quality compound and polish. They will know, very quickly, that it may only take 4 passes to correct a section, or it may take 6 to get to the point that a polish can be used. They know when the working time of a compound is being exceeded, or exactly when the DAT abrasives have broken down.They can look at the way the compound is reacting, and know when they need to increase or reduce pressure, or if the it is necessary to increase or reduce the speed setting on their particular machine. They will know this for hard clear coat, soft clear coat, medium clear coat. or even single stage paint. A newbie detailer may get good results, but may not get optimum results with the exact same products, and may have a lot more difficulty with more difficult paint types (say soft clear coats). This is why I went with technique. As good as today's compounds, pads, and machines are, somebody has to get hose wonderful things to work together to get a great end result. Abrasives are really major, no doubt. But results only come from taking those amazing abrasives onto paint, and moving them around to get the result that is desired. The absolutely best compounds, superb pads, and high tech machines do not do anything until they are put to work on paint. And when they are put to work on paint, technique is what determines their success or lack thereof. A pro detailer will get that perfect (or best possible) result, a newbie detailer will probably fall short of that.