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  1. #121
    Super Member Pats300zx's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by swanicyouth View Post
    You mean the magic properties of the coating didn't inhibit marring on your paint? I'm surprised. They're all 9h - whatever that means. I dunno - something to do with a hard pencil or something. And they have nano glass ceramic quartz particles in them. See, that means they are very small and very hard (lol sux). That's always a lot better for some reason. Particles so small - they have quarks and leptons in them.

    Seriously, the funny thing about coatings is they are supposed to make your life easier. The reality is - they are plagued with issues: cross brand potential unknown product incompatibilities, high cost, need a whole slew of maintenance/prep/topper/applicator products specific to each coating, water spots, very early onset coating failures, need to be periodically "decontaminated" (yeah right), high spots, short shelf life, etc...

    But they are pushed by pro detailers and vendors alike. Why IMO??? Because they are fast / easy to install? Because they are economical? Because they protect your paint better? No, no, & no.

    The reason is anything labeled a "coating" or product designed for a coating can be sold at a significant premium over their traditional counterparts. Special coating soaps? Coating boosters? Coating prep polish? - it's all a cash cow for those manufacturing it, selling it, & installing it. Put the word "coating" on any label and you can charge 2x as much for half as much product - usually the ratio isn't even that favorable. It's like voodoo - it says "coating" (soap, etc...) so it has to cost a lot MORE!

    Plus, with most coatings you get exactly 1 application per purchase. Any other type of LSP? - you may get 30-50 applications... This is great for those profiting in the coating market - I'm all about commerce and profit.

    But, the reality is - your paying a lot of money for a product that requires a significant amount of maintenance that will likely not live up to it's claims of durability or protection. Then, when you get PO'ed cause yr coating wasn't earth shattering; or the newest latest greatest coating comes out - you'll be stuck with all the maintenance / prep products you bought for your initial coating that may or may not work with your new coating.

    The return on investment of dollars/time/resources/effort is very poor IMO with coatings.

    I think the future is in easy to apply long lasting spray sealant type products. Not the streaky nano ceramic Reload stuff that is loved by some and hated by others because results are a crap shoot. But, traditional polymer type products like Rupes P808, Prima Hydro Max, or McKees 10 minute.

    Once your car is clean you can apply these in 10 mins til your hearts content. They're getting to the point where they are claiming 6 months durability. So, my standard detailing manufacturers' claim elucidation formula is to take whatever the manufacturer claims for performance and cut it in half. If you even get that long you are lucky. Even if these sealants last only 3 mos, that means wiping your car down 4x a year with a QD like product for the costs of pennies each time. Easy. Done. Anyone can do it anywhere there is a towel & a clean car.

    These products are cheap, very fast / easy to use, require no special maintenance / prep products, are compatible with any soap, don't make over exaggerated claims about "protection", are predictable in their results, etc..

    Anyway, that's how I roll these days. I don't wanna drop a few hundred for a coating that may or may not last or even look good. I don't want to waste extra time doing special wipe downs, looking at panels under 14 special lights before the coating flashes, dealing with water spots, etc... I prefer to use what's cheap, easy, and works.
    Fantastic post and so on point !!!
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  2. #122
    Super Member Calendyr's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorado2k View Post
    Is it true that these paint coatings have 9h hardness? Or was that a joke? Because if that’s really what they claim, then that’s as hard as the tempered glass screen protectors they sell for smartphones, and they’re pretty damn solid.

    If that’s what they’re seriously claiming then all these excuses about so and so chemical, and a little salt and sleet should be no sweat for a coating, certainly not reasons for excuse.

    2yrs. isn’t too much to ask from a coating... Especially when you consider clearcoat can easily last 20-30 yrs. or more. If these coatings really are supposedly 9h hardness then the only concern should be the initial bonding to the paint that could and would eventually fail. Am I way off or crazy to even think this?
    The way I understand it, they tested the resistance to scratches using lead pencils and the coating can resist scratches from a 9H pencil.

    As for clearcoat lasting 30 years... really? The half-life of clearcoats is 5 years. That is why most clear coats fail around the 10 year point. If can prolong the durability by keeping the car protected with waxes, sealants and coatings, but on it's own I don't think there are any chance a clear coat will last 30 years.

  3. #123
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Longevity of a coating.
    I think that the most impact on your LSP of any kind is how much your car is driven. Then comes the environment you live in. And this is if you maintain your car properly. The environment you drive on is pretty hard on your car. Roads are dirty and you drive on them with different speeds. Dirt are going to come up in the air by the turbulence from the car and being slinged up by the wheels. Then it could be raining or wet roads or snow roads and all that gets on there when it's time for getting the snow off. So it's no wonder why a car gets dirty and the more it gets the more you drive it. This is where IMO the most wear and tear comes to the surfaces on your vehicals. And takes off your LSP little by little. I could be dead wrong too. But think a LSP longevity claim would be best counted in the miles you drive your vehical. Think that I have seen Gyeon has a time claim or when you hit a certain range of miles driven. Even with this you don't get an excact time when your LSP is done. Cause 15k miles in sunny weather and nice roads. Is not the same as 15k miles in rain and wet roads or snow and road salted roads. So a longevity claim of a LSP is impossible to claim. If all companys have the same condition when testing the longevity of their LSP products. You can get an estimate of how long a LSP last between them in that condition. Not how long it will last on your car. If you have 2 cars and they are driven in different condition during the year and with different mileage. And you use the same LSP and the same maintance and they are parked in the same condition. You will have a difference to the longevity you get on them. Hope I make any sence with my thoughts about it LOL. This is not just coatings but waxes and sealants too or what else of the protection of choice.

    Here comes something I not get much of response on. And it's the decon washes. I think that it's cause of the different environments we live in. And how we are used to do this if you ever do it. Before I touch the paint with a wash mitt I will have it as clean as possible. In the summer months it's road film and bugs that are the most of. For that I have used many years to apply a alkaline degreaser that desolves the most of this. And use the water pressure from the PW or a strong water pressure from the hose to clean the paint with thoroughly. Not just rinse but use the water pressure to clean with. Then go on with the 2bm wash and dry the car.
    For the snowy winter months when the road salt is on the roads. It's necessary to apply a tar degreaser first on the lower side panels and the back of the car. Where the dirt from the wheels and turbulence hits the car. After that has dwelled enough I apply the alkaline degreaser over the whole car. Then you clean with the water pressure from the PW or hose. And move on to the 2bm wash and dry it.
    This is the most common method to maintain the cars here in Sweden. Then the later years with the adding of the foamcannon and some more effective prewash foam soaps than the alkaline degreaser. Could be what is in the alkaline degreaser and the tar degreaser that you don't use this in the US. Or just different ways to reach the same goals of a clean and shiney car.

    Why I mention these decon steps before washing the car. Is it takes a chemical resistant LSP. So you don't have to reapply it after every wash. Many synthetic wax and sealant has some resistance to chemicals and some are better than others. Now here is where coating and coating toppers comes in. They are very chemical resistant and will not degrade as long as you are useing chemical products that it can handle. Cause if I where to use for an example Megs Super Degreaser that has a ph level around 13 even when diluted. Most coatings are not going to handle that in the long run and degrade the coating. But if you useing chemical products that it can handle you are going to have a cleaner coating for a longer time. You would not get the same amount of contaminants on the coating if you use products that are suitable for it. All coating brands don't make degreaser products that would fit with this decon steps. But you can use other brands to if you know what you are useing.

    We take Gyeon as an example. And I live in an environment that has snow and uses road salt on the roads. I have a car with Gyeon Pure coating on it. And the car is covered with road salt and other dirt on the paint. I would start with Gyeon Foam in the foamcannon and foam it on a dry car and let it dwell for over 5min but not let it dry on the paint. Clean with the water pressure from the PW from bottom and work my way up. Then spray the side panels and the back of the car with Gyeon Tar. The same thing with the water pressure from the PW and clean from the bottom and work my way up. Then a 2bm wash with Gyeon Bathe. Depending on how much iron particals I have in my environment I would at least apply Gyeon Iron remover 2 times a year. This is just the washing to get as little as possible of embedded contaminants on the coating and paint. And get the coating behavior to last as long as possible. Then if you have water spotting issue I would have Gyeon Water Spot and use that as soon as possible before they damage anything or bonds to strong.

    The use of toppers and sio2 maintance products is another story

    Just some thoughts about maintance of coatings.

    /Tony

  4. #124
    Super Member Desertnate's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by SWETM View Post
    But think a LSP longevity claim would be best counted in the miles you drive your vehical. Think that I have seen Gyeon has a time claim or when you hit a certain range of miles driven. Even with this you don't get an excact time when your LSP is done. Cause 15k miles in sunny weather and nice roads. Is not the same as 15k miles in rain and wet roads or snow and road salted roads. So a longevity claim of a LSP is impossible to claim.
    Great post and I agree that nailing down longevity is nearly impossible due to environmental conditions. However, I don't think mileage driven would be any better than some vague time-based guess by a company.

    Case in point: I use the same products on my personal fleet of vehicles in order to keep life simple. Each of the cars see the same environment and are daily driven and sit outdoors during the day. Two of the three see some garage time at night while the third is never garaged. The big varience comes from miles driven. My daughter's car sees only around 5K miles a year, I drive mine 10~11K miles a year, and my wife drives roughly 30K miles per year. Despite the massive variance in milage driven, both sealants and a coating have held up to the same length of time. If durability was true to the mileage, i.e. 15K miles as one coating company claims, I'd be re-coating my wife's car twice a year. This would mean the coating would have no better durability than my experience with Collinite 845, which I really hope would not be the case and am pretty sure isn't based on that companies reputation.
    Drop by to see the latest at The Car Geek Blog

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  6. #125
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    The 15k miles was just a number I throwed out not a claim from any coating. And the point I was trying to say is that a longevity claim of a LSP on your own car is impossible to get. It's to many variables that has an impact on your LSP longevity. And I think that many is calling a LSP done. When it's clogged up with different contaminants a wash don't desolve. But a decon wash with the right product to the contaminants that you have.

    I used Gyeon Wet Coat as a stand alone LSP this winter. And when the prewash foam did leave it as the side panels and the back of the car was done after 3 weeks. I got a little bummed. But when I had used the tar degreaser based on kerosene and a 2bm wash with carpro reset. The water behavior and gloss was back to the day it was applyied. I think that a car soap like reset is necessary to keep the coating as contaminants free as possible. I have had sealant and coating maintance products revived with washing with reset and doing decon steps before washing the car.

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  8. #126
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    If i had to polish the ceramic coat. How would i know i completely removed it ? can i follow same procedure as polishing any paint ?

  9. #127
    Super Member swanicyouth's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by cayenne_ksa View Post
    If i had to polish the ceramic coat. How would i know i completely removed it ? can i follow same procedure as polishing any paint ?
    You don’t. In fact - can it ever be completely removed?

    Think about it. Clear coat is full of peaks and valleys under magnification. I’m sure it’s easy to remove the coating from the peaks - but what about the valleys?

    We know you can’t compound out orange peel to level those peaks and valleys - you have to sand. We also know polishing will level a scratch - so it diminishes the high parts - not the low parts. So does that pad even touch the low parts? Does the coating get abraided out of the low parts ever?

    Who knows.

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  11. #128
    Super Member rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Coatings are not that tough(at the consumer grade). At least the ones I have dealt with are not. A mild polish will remove most coatings. Mike P. Even suggested using an AOI to remove high spots and high spots are where the highest level of a coating is on your paint.

  12. #129
    Super Member The Guz's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by swanicyouth View Post
    I'm sure coatings would be wonderful if the user experience / end result was consistent or came close to meeting the manufacturers claims. Maybe the coating market has been poisoned by certain manufacturers calling their LSPs "coatings" when in fact they are basically sealants being sold at a significant premium.

    ? Almost all the coating manufacturers recommend/make their own "special" prep, soap, and maintenance/booster/topper products for their coating. Sure you don't HAVE to use them - but if you are going to spend the time and effort to correct the car and apply the coating; most here are probably going to use the associated products recommended by the coating manufacturer.

    IME claims such as "chemical resistance" and "scratch/marring resistance" are pretty much a joke. As are the manufacturers longevity claims: "up to two years durability" means anything from 1 second to two years. It may last 2 years in the perfect environment only driving the car to church on Sundays, but likely not in the real world. Also, I'm defining "coating failure" as the coating failing on ANY part or the dirtiest part of the vehicle. When the coating fails there you will be directed to some booster product that is just covering up where the initial product disappeared. You could do the same with any wax & spray wax.

    No, I have not tried them all - but have tried enough to get the jist of what's going on. I have not tried McKees - but have used Pinnacle; which most would agree is similar enough to be almost interchangeable. Maybe it's where I live, but the first huge snow driving on salted roads and that coating was toast on the lower panels. Was not impressed - could get the same result from other products with significantly lower cost & effort.

    But don't take my word for it. The forums are filled with posts regarding less than favorable reports of durability, early failure, water spotting, application issues, and various other headaches with a significant amount of these products. When it happens - it always "user error" or the detailer didn't use the "right" prep product. Results are just inconsistent in the real world.

    I don't think coatings do squat to keep your paint in excellent condition. I think what does that is learning how to clean your vehicle in a manner that does not damage paint. In reality, proper procedure / skill will always trump latest and greatest product. You can get excellent hydrophobics from a ton of conventional products that can be applied in minutes with out any potential headaches.
    Out of curiosity what coatings have you used?

    Quote Originally Posted by cayenne_ksa View Post
    If i had to polish the ceramic coat. How would i know i completely removed it ? can i follow same procedure as polishing any paint ?
    Check out this post by Jeff from Gyeon.

    Re applying Gyeon Mohs?

  13. #130
    Super Member Calendyr's Avatar
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    Re: The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by cayenne_ksa View Post
    If i had to polish the ceramic coat. How would i know i completely removed it ? can i follow same procedure as polishing any paint ?
    I had to remove the coating on a hood I had just done 3 weeks back. I had applied McKee's 37 paint coating.

    Long story short, I had to re-do the hood. I tried removing the coating with M205 and it did not do anything. I then tried using D300 and it did not do anything. I then used a 3000 grit sanding disk (meguiars) on a DA and it took quite a while to remove the coating. How could I tell? After doing the first pass of sanding, there were several large spots still very shiny while the rest of the area was dull. I sanded those spots again, reduced them but still there. Then a third time, same, 4th sanding pass removed it all. So if you think you can simply use a finishing polish to get that stuff off, you will have a bad surprise.

    Coatings are increadibly resistant, that is why we put them on. I would not recommend polishing them because it would reduce them and maybe damage them, but to strip them off is a much more difficult thing than anything I have read here.

    Maybe some coatings are not that resistant. I am thinking of the ones that are toppers for regular coatings (Gliss type stuff). But I dare you to remove Opti-Coat with a polish

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