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  1. #1
    Mike Phillips
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    Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful



    Had a phone call from Shawn Kelly at Premier Detailing about a problem he was having on a brand new Mercedes-Benz AMG with Ceramiclear finish.

    The customer bought the car brand new but brand new from the dealership it came with holograms, buffer marks and compound residue everywhere.

    Shawn is an experienced Pro Detailer and when he started having problems working on the paint he called me to discuss possible remedies. In our conversation he told me that he had heard from someone in the auto industry that the chemistry design of Ceramiclear paints is that the nano particles in the resin migrate to the top to form the scratch-resistant surface.

    I told him that I've heard of paint technologies like this but had no concrete information that this is the case for the PPG Ceramiclear. So I called the Doctor.

    I called Dr. David Ghodoussi, who has either worked for or consulted for the majority of automotive paint manufactures for more information on this subject. Dr. Ghodoussi is more than qualified to talk about paint chemistry and he confirmed that what Shawn was told is correct.

    From Dr. Ghodoussi...
    After the "cerami"clear top coat is sprayed, the nano particles of Fumed Silica (SiO2), which are synthetically engineered, migrate to the top 0.2 mils of the clear coat as it is curing.

    If you remove this potion of the clear layer of paint, the paint under it will be much softer and will not polish out or react the same way the nano particle portion did or would.
    You will at some level have compromised the the finish on the car.


    Knowing this, my opinion is that this is bad paint technology because while it might work in the testing labs, in the real world it puts detailers and car owners at risk.

    Dr. Ghodoussi said this is an example of over-engineering.

    I agree. The paint systems on new cars should not be rocket science for detailers or even car owners to work on. Daily drivers see wear-n-tear and the way wear-n-tear, (swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation), is addressed is to abrade the surface using some type of compounding and/or polishing process.

    Paint manufactures and Car manufactures, (the companies using the paint), should know the paint on the finished product is going to become scratched and swirled and then compounded and polished and they should be taking this into consideration and providing a finish on new cars with this mind.

    To Paint Manufacturers and Car Manufacturers
    Just to note... if there are any representatives from paint manufacturers or car manufacturers reading this, cars are often times polished more than ONCE over their service life. So start putting more paint on your cars and make sure the paint can be compounded and polished by both pro detailers and enthusiast detailers without having to have a degree in chemistry.


    Choose wisely
    Knowing all of the above I would suggest that any time you are asked to work on a car with a Ceramiclear finish to first find out the history of the paint, that is... has it been cut with a compound by someone else that has worked on the car previously. If you find out others have compounded the Ceramiclear paint then choose wisely whether or not you put yourself at risk doing any type of compounding or polishing work to the paint.

    Regardless of whether or not the car has ever been compounded or polished, follow this advice,

    "Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"



    There's a famous line from a Kenny Rogers song called The Gambler that goes like this,

    You've got to know when to hold 'em
    Know when to fold 'em
    Know when to walk away
    And know when to run
    It could be that when it comes to cars with Ceramiclear paint jobs... you might want to as I say...

    Let some other guy have the blessing...




  2. #2
    Mike Phillips
    Guest

    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    From PPG.com


    CeramiClear Clearcoat
    PPG's CeramiClear® clearcoat was the first clearcoat to use nanoparticle technology to achieve a previously unattained level of scratch, mar, and etch resistance.

    This patented technology creates a hard, silica-like surface that provides superior resistance to damage caused by day-to-day use, car washes, and environmental hazards such as acid rain and tree sap.

    While this technology is currently employed as a two-component liquid clearcoat, PPG is very close to commercializing a one-component version for use in automotive assembly plants.



  3. #3
    Super Member Shane731's Avatar
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    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    So, what did Shawn decide to do about continuing on with polishing?
    Shane
    2021 Honda Civic Hatchback EX Lunar Silver

  4. #4
    Mike Phillips
    Guest

    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    Quote Originally Posted by CieraSL View Post
    So, what did Shawn decide to do?
    Since he already buffed out the car he tested multiple products until he found a system approach that would remove the swirls and restore a clear, high gloss finish and the sealed it with something, I don't remember the specifics.

    The point of the article is to warn others to be careful.

    By the time Shawn contacted me he had already accepted the job and started buffing on the car... he was committed.


    After learning of his experience, I felt compelled to share his story with our forum to hopefully help others avoid putting themselves into a situation where it was going to be difficult to fix the paint and make the customer happy. Not because a detailer isn't good at what they do but because they're dealing with a compromised paint finish.

    My article also stresses that if you are going to work on a car with a Ceramiclear finish to use the least aggressive product to get the job done.

    Max, our CEO and President has a brand new 2012 Mercedes-Benz and I've shared this with him and you can bet no one here is going to compound his brand new AMG.

    My good friend Earl the Plumber just bought a 2007 Mercedes-Benz AMG and I'm using it in a Flex video and I'll guarantee you I'll be inspecting the paint very carefully when it arrives and using the least aggressive products to get the job done when I do a demo in the video and later when I finish out the car as a "thank you" to Earl for letting us use his AMG.

    The last thing the owner of a car with a Ceramiclear finish wants to have happen is have an untrained detailer, including detailers at car dealerships take the caveman approach of using a coarse cutting compound with a wool pad on their car and we all know this happens way too often.

    See my article here,


    DISO = The Dealership Installed Swirl Option


    The story of 3 H's - Horrendous, Horror Story and Hack Detailers...









  5. #5
    Mike Phillips
    Guest

    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    Just to note...

    The information shared here is all the more reason for anyone thinking of getting into the detailing business to do all they can to educate themselves via detailing discussion forums like AutogeekOnline.net and go to as many detailing classes as you can to increase your skills and knowledge level.


    I always say, detailers that hang out on detailing discussion forums know more than detailers that don't.




  6. #6
    Super Member Porsche Pilot's Avatar
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    Is there any way to find out which manufacturers are using these Cerimiclear systems and possibly which model year range? Most of my clients wouldn't have a clue nor would I unless I research each car that comes into the shop prior to buffing.

    Great article Mike and these types of tips can save us paint polishers a lot of grief, not to mention the client.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

  7. #7
    Super Member FUNX650's Avatar
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    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    Thank you so much, Mike, for this very informative article...

    What a blessing it is to have someone that will share this kind of knowledge and their experiences...!




    Bob
    "Be wary of the man who urges an action in which he himself incurs no risk."
    ~Joaquin de Setanti

  8. #8
    Super Member The Pad Man's Avatar
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    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    From a painting standpoint,. you cannot blend these either. These are found on high end Mercedes and BMW that I know of for sure. Whats interesting is that many shops that have to do repair on these paints, use a standard clear.

  9. #9
    Super Member swanicyouth's Avatar
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    This is very interesting. I did some research on BMW and it seems they are only using the ceramic coating on cars painted in Germany. The ones painted in SC (like my M Roadster E85) use "standard" clear. At least that's what my web search came up with. Supposedly all Mercedes use ceramic clear. On an aside, I found the above sticker under the hood of my 01 Bayshore Blue Pathfinder that I just polished with the Wolfgang twins (it came out great!). Is this "self healing clear coat"? I tried Menzerma Intensive Polish first on an orange LC pad with no results. Then I switched to Wolfgang TSR 3.0 on a yellow LC pad with great results. Here's a IPhone pic of the hood (I'm not a photographer, not the best pic)


  10. #10
    Super Member lokichaos's Avatar
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    Re: Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

    Thank you for the informative write up Mike! Now at least those who read this thread will have been warned.
    Who said you had to be a guy to like detailing?
    Eva

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