Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

[Mike Phillips]

IOW = In Other Words, hybrid LSPs.

Correct Jim....


A few years ago I wrote an article to try to explain this as well as a lot of other things, but one of the points I made was there are very few car waxes that are solely based on Carnauba wax. Even if they use the name Carnauba in the name and on the front label there is often more and other ingredients in the formula.

Most quality waxes with Carnauba ALSO include a lot of other ingredients and therefore are what I call blended waxes or hybrid waxes. That is a blend or mix of not just naturally occurring Carnauba wax but also man-made or synthesized ingredients.

Here's the deal...

If you use a product where the protection and beauty benefits are supplied by only a single ingredient then you only get the benefits and features from a single ingredient. That's very limiting in this day and age of science.

If you use a product where the chemist has blended together multiple ingredients then you get more benefits and features.

A good chemist includes ingredients that provide things like protection, (of course), beauty, (things like gloss and shine), as well as easy application, easy wipe-off, sometimes fast drying is a feature or no drying at all, just depends on the goal.

Then there's cleaner/waxes, waxes that clean, polish and protect.


Here's that article....


The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax



In the long run, what's most important is to find something you like and use it...

[Mike Phillips]

^ shows what I know. I thought they stopped using Carnauba years ago.

I asked one of their chemists about Carnauba as an ingredient one day and his answer was very simple. Carnauba is a wax that when properly prepared for use on car paint will add a lot of gloss.

I think it's safe to say we all like a glossy looking finish... I know I do....


1954 Ford F-100 - Extreme Makeover - Process and products used






After all the polishing work, the paint on this old Ford was topped with a Carnauba wax....

[PiPUK]

Of course the use of 'hybrid' for a wax which is just a blend of silicon chemicals and hydrocarbon type waxes confuses matters - how then does one identify when a product contains a silicon based wax?

'Blended' waxes have been around for so long that they are pretty much the norm. I would suggest that 'pure' waxes are really only re-appearing as more amateur brewers decide to release their homebrews to the market. Amusingly enough, we get a whole lot of people coming to us looking for the more interesting ingredients which they cannot source elsewhere. And thus the homebrew waxes tend back towards the professionally manufactured waxes which they were seeking to improve upon... interesting!

[Setec Astronomy]

how then does one identify when a product contains a silicon based wax?

Um...don't we call that a "sealant"?

[PiPUK]

Um...don't we call that a "sealant"?

Nope! This is a wax with sealant chemistry. It is both wax and sealant, in one. It is not a mix or blend and out performs both.

[Setec Astronomy]

Nope! This is a wax with sealant chemistry. It is both wax and sealant, in one. It is not a mix or blend and out performs both.

I know you are the one person not to argue terminology with, and maybe I should have reviewed the earlier part of this thread before saying this, but isn't the "accepted" terminology that a wax is a natural product, while a sealant is a synthetic one? And therefore a wax with sealant chemistry would be a sealant?

[PiPUK]

I know you are the one person not to argue terminology with, and maybe I should have reviewed the earlier part of this thread before saying this, but isn't the "accepted" terminology that a wax is a natural product, while a sealant is a synthetic one? And therefore a wax with sealant chemistry would be a sealant?

No harm in a bit of debate!

This depends on who the terminology belongs to! In detailing circles, you are probably correct. Unfortunately, as with many things, this falls apart when you know a bit more of the chemistry.

Waxes very much do not need to be natural. There are numerous examples of waxes, which have been in automotive products for years, decades probably, which are synthetic. Take polythene wax, for example. In my mind, a wax is generally going to be a hydrocarbon based product (so that means carbon chemistry). On the molecular level, they are great big long chains.

Sealants can be very broad and, yes, it would seem that they are synthetic. Now, the group which I would consider to be the majority are based around something distinctly different. I am sure you know that we are carbon based lifeforms. Well many sealants are effectively aliens - silicon based lifeforms! Basically, the carbon atoms are replaced by silicon atoms. I have seen the term 'sealant' used even on very simple silicone oil type products.

Hybrids are a combination of the two. So the type which Mike refers to is quite valid, it is a mix of two different chemicals, one with carbon and one with silicon chemistry - the product is a hybrid. This is an acknowledged group but, as I noted, there is a second group where there is a single chemical which has a wax like structure (whether that is long chain fatty or whatever), but centred around silicon, not carbon. So, in this instance, the actual active component is itself a hybrid, not just the product you make with it.

It is an interesting distinction because the higher level hybrids are very high tech whilst the blends can be very simple. The performance is notably different, as is the cost (at an estimate, the high tech hybrids will cost something like 10x as much). So it is something which would be nice for the market to know about, if a product is genuinely higher tech - but the looser use of terminology in the detailing sector means that it is basically impossible to know which product is a mix or traditional wax and silicones and which which contains a genuine hybrid wax.

Complicated....

[Loach]

What specifically causes a degradation in the base layer bonding of a sealant or wax? Or what does that even look like at a microscopic level, this breakdown process that determines that the surface is less protected at a certain level compared to the panel directly after immediate application of said wax/sealant? Say you wax or seal a paint surface and this surface sits in a temperature controlled showroom. Why does the bonding of the surface degrade over time, and how does one even determine and view this degradation to conclude that the wax or sealant is no longer even effective?

The answers of those questions are most certainly different depending on the exact wax/sealant/coating product we're talking about, but I'm thinking in general terms, say M26 or even Meguiar's Gold Class vs. Meguiar's Ultimate Wax. Where one product category is commonly referred to as being of a lower "durability" than the other product. If anyone has any insight or can direct me to any articles that could shed light on this subject I'd appreciate it.

[Mike Phillips]

No harm in a bit of debate!

I agree... discussions are great... but I've never seen anyone win a wax war.

Complicated....

That's why I like to "try" to keep it more simple...

A person can study and study and study detailing products and that's all good but at the end of the day at some point they are going to go out into their garage and slap something on the paint and wipe it off.

Hopefully it will look good and then they can move on...


Years ago I started using the below in my Sig Line....


"Find something you like and use it often"


The point being if you liked it that generally means you like how it applies, like how it wipes off and like how it looks and sometimes you like how long it lasts.

Use it often simply means if you use the product on a regular basis, even if it's mediocre product, just the act of regularly applying "something" to your car's paint has a cleaning and polishing effect and the result is the paint will always look great. It's only when a person neglects their paint over time that it goes down hill.

I think the quote is popular, (I see people sharing it all over the Interwebs), because it's true and if the quote is put into action it works.

[Setec Astronomy]

No harm in a bit of debate!

I did look back in the thread later and there was no discussion of the chemistry per se, so I guess if a "wax" is a long chain fatty acid and a "sealant" is something else, it really doesn't matter if it's natural or synthetic or whether it's carbon or silicon based. And that gets to the way it bonds to the surface (I guess); the usual distinction used on detailing forums is whether it "cross-links".

As Mike says, in the end it's simply academic, no one really knows what's in these products and you have to use what works for you, and make judgments on trying new products based on the opinions of people you trust.

I guess we are all worried we are paying a huge amount for a bottle or tub of something that is a bulk product, and we are paying for marketing hyperbole rather than expensive chemistry, so we try to figure it inside out, which of course doesn't really help us in the end.