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  1. #61
    Senior Member Extreme Radiance's Avatar
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    Astro nailed it.
    Are we paying for science or hype?
    We all would gladly pay for science from a no name company. Word of mouth is the best advertising.
    Extreme Radiance Detailing


  2. #62
    Senior Member RobRabbit2.5's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme Radiance View Post
    Astro nailed it.
    Are we paying for science or hype?
    We all would gladly pay for science from a no name company. Word of mouth is the best advertising.
    Testable Repeatable Results are the hallmark of science. These products offer results which meet these criteria on a consistent basis.

    I could care less if the products are made with real bits of baby jesus's gold fleece diaper if they perform poorly, even if they are cheap.

    I think we're all very comfortable paying the price we do for the results we're getting else we wouldn't be here.

    IMO if you're on AG the battles mostly won. Products that don't meet the standards aren't here. Stay in your budget and detail on.
    The secret to getting ahead, is getting started..... ~Mark Twain

  3. #63
    Senior Member Niblick's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by RaskyR1 View Post
    All valid arguments. However, what would you say about coatings like Modesta that have their own primer polish, which can be used prior to applying one of their coatings, which claim 3-10 years durability? Or Optimum Opti-Coat Pro, which requires you to use their Primer Polish prior to applying their coating, which is permanent? On top of that, Optimum has said you can coat right over any other their polishes, and only wiping down with a damp MF towel is needed prior to application.
    well now we're into the realms of what most would class as paint coatings, which are a different kettle of fish again. many of these are very fussy and will require chemically clean paint to bond to properly. that said you can apply virtually any product you wish over any other product. it might not take very well and you may well have product interference issues, but theres nothing stopping you from doing it if you really want to. you'll note that with the exception of the Optimum opticoat pro, which is chemically structured to require the use of a primer, the others all use the word 'can'. Its worth bearing in mind that saying you 'can' do something isn't quite the same as saying 'this is how to get the most out of your product'. you 'can' probably put a nano sealant over wax if you so wish, it just tends to work better the other way around. there are very fews do's and don'ts when it comes to lsp's, theres really only 'not so good, good and better', because at the end of the day, what you're applying will protect the paint for a period of time, however you apply it. i hope that helps answer your question.

  4. #64
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy View Post
    I did look back in the thread later and there was no discussion of the chemistry per se, so I guess if a "wax" is a long chain fatty acid and a "sealant" is something else, it really doesn't matter if it's natural or synthetic or whether it's carbon or silicon based. And that gets to the way it bonds to the surface (I guess); the usual distinction used on detailing forums is whether it "cross-links".

    As Mike says, in the end it's simply academic, no one really knows what's in these products and you have to use what works for you, and make judgments on trying new products based on the opinions of people you trust.

    I guess we are all worried we are paying a huge amount for a bottle or tub of something that is a bulk product, and we are paying for marketing hyperbole rather than expensive chemistry, so we try to figure it inside out, which of course doesn't really help us in the end.
    Cross-linking - another one to confuse. It is common practice to use a blend of cross linking and non cross linking polymers!

    You make two points which are the crux of all of this. There ARE companies who are spending $0.50 a gallon and selling it out at $20 for a small bottle. How do you figure identify those products/brands? The second is who you trust - marketing goes a lot further than some fancy words in the product literature. There are any number of stories in the UK of companies paying well known detailers to tell people that they use their products. This is absolutely no guarantee of quality and (if the stories are to be believe) does not even mean those big name detailers will actually use the products at all! So you really must beware who you trust.

    I don't know who the following will be received but the truth is that there are very rarely enormous differences between two products of a similar type, from different companies. Ok, it is a non acid wheel cleaner. It is alkaline but non-caustic. Chances are, it may be slightly better or not quite as good as a comparison from someone else, but it is just not going to be night and day. To me, this is the first 'tell' that you are being sold a lemon - if a company insists on telling you that every product, even the mundane, is better than anything else out there, they are almost certainly lying. Likewise, if an online review tells you the same, either the reviewer is an idiot or has some other reason to come to the conclusion they did.

  5. #65
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    Smile Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    Have you been through the entire list yet?

    Articles by Mike Phillips


    I added about 20 new articles last week and have a couple more dozen to add still...








    The only problem with the above is that the person doing the wiping must be very careful PLUS use premium quality wiping cloths so as not to re-introduce marring back into the paint as some chemical stripping products are not also GREAT lubricants.

    I point this out in detail here with pictures using black paint to make the point...


    Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer


    Wiped very thoroughly with Mineral Spirits



    Any marring you see now is not "holograms" but marring from wiping. Keep in mind, clear coats are "Scratch-Sensitive" and when working on BLACK paint even the lightest defects show up, that's why I always test on black paint.



    I think it's pretty obvious that there are zero holograms or rotary buffer swirls in the paint...



    Next I wiped the panel down with IPA at 12.5%. Note when I wiped the panel down both with MS and IPA I dragged the panel into the shade first.



    Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a horrible lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called working backwards. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.







    At a minimum, it can't possibly do any harm to work within a system approach when using a reputable brand of products. For example, after polishing or using a pre-wax paint cleaner from Brand X, follow that with an LSP from Brand X.

    What do you have to lose?






    And then we're back to here... this article I wrote in 1994...


    "Find something you like and use it often"


    And here's what the above quote means...


    If you like a product, that usually means you like the experience of using it which includes application, that is you like how the product applies. It also tends to mean you like how the product removes, that is you like how the product wipes-off. It can also mean you like how fast or slow it dries or the fact that it doesn't have to dry at all and you can wipe it off immediately.

    And usually and most important, it means you like how it makes the paint on your car look and that's a huge part of the big picture of owning and enjoying your car, truck or s.u.v. or special interest car.

    You can't really know which product you like best until you've used a variety of products so finding something you like and using it often means you have to do some research and at some point make some purchases and then go out into your garage and do some testing to gain real world knowledge and experience.

    At some point you will find a product you like and if you use it often then your car's paint will always look good because it's only when you neglect your car's paint that it goes downhill.

    Just the simple act of applying and working-in and over the paint a smooth, creamy product, (that is formulated to make paint look good), has a polishing-effect and if done on a regular basis will preserve and maintain a clear, glossy finish and isn't that the primary goal of those that consider them serious car enthusiasts?

    How often you have to repeat this process to maintain your car's finish to a quality level you expect for your car's appearance depends upon how the car is used and where it's parked when not in use.

    A daily driver that is parked outside most of the time, either at work or at home, will need to be maintained more regularly than a Garage Queen that is only driven on sunny days. So adjust your car maintenance schedule to fit your lifestyle and the way you use your car.

    :D

    WOW great pictures and article. Thank you Mike for your expertise!!!

  6. #66
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by bradycat View Post

    WOW great pictures and article.

    Thank you Mike for your expertise!!!



    Thank you but just to note...

    I NEVER wanted to write the article on how to correctly dilute IPA to make it safe for the average person to use to chemically strip paint.



    The PROBLEM

    The problem was we had some forum bullies that not only talked to people including me in a demeaning manner but they were continually telling everyone they needed to use IPA to strip their car's paint. BUT - they NEVER gave any actual and helpful information on exactly how to do this, just threw out there what I call one-liners.

    I asked for someone else to write the article and waited for ONE YEAR - and when no one else would take up the challenge, not even the dude always spewing out bad information, I finally wrote the article. I started by first doing research instead of just regurgitating what was written all over the blogosphere.

    That article led to this article and this is when I shared that wiping with SOLVENTS (which is what chemical stripping products are), tends to leave maring in your car's paint.

    Marring is the kind, gentle word for scratching.


    Anyway, everyone can find their own way to get the perfect shine.


    Me? I just try to keep things real-world.



    Mike Phillips
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  8. #67
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    ***Update***


    Cross posted to the below thread in post #47


    Reccomend a Wax over Sealant for me. Or Not?



    Mike Phillips
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  9. #68
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    ***Update***


    Referenced here,


    Slick polymer and bonding



    Mike Phillips
    Director of Training Autogeek & Marine 31
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  11. #69
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Mike Phillips
    Director of Training Autogeek & Marine 31
    IDA Board Member - Certified Detailer - Skills Validated Detailer - IDA Recognized Trainer
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