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  1. #11
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    it's been 6+ weeks
    and so far I like this combo of sealant + HD wax way more on this car than Meg's HT 2 wax on another car
    looks and protection wise
    water repellent wise like a day and night

    interesting how new Meg's wax would compare to HD Wax?

  2. #12
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek View Post
    Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations

    Synergistic Chemical Compatibility.
    Mike, thanks again for another supeb post. Loved the above key points. While I'm not a professional chemist, I did minor in Organic Chem in college and developed several chem based processes when I was a process engineer (I also once slept at a Holiday Inn Express ), so I get the point. Your comments on the synergistic compatibility illustrates a key point from another of your posts on staying within a brand. The chemists are specifically formulating the products from one step to react favorably with the next. If you go outside the brand line, maybe you get this, maybe you get some, maybe you get nothing or a negative effect.

    Anyway, anyone can do anything they want to their own cars or in their business. If someone wants to prep cars with radioactive naplam, more power to 'em. Just don't expect me to follow along. As a process engineer I learned a long time ago that "best practices", mfg recommendations and those that work just fine are not necessarily the same thing.

  3. #13
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyMetal View Post

    Mike, thanks again for another superb post.

    Thank you for the kind words... I found this article one of the more tricky articles that I've ever written...

    I have a writing style I call, Defensive Writing, and by this I mean if I can't defend it, I don't write it nor do I post it.

    But when I do post it... I have all my ducks in a row. Kind of something I learned through experience as I'm a Veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wars on multiple discussion forums over the years.

    (I wrote "The Zaino Case Study"), back in 2004 and it's 65 page long not including documentation.


    And... Sal Zaino is a good friend of mine... as are the good folks at Meguiar's...


    "Find something you like and use it often"




  4. #14
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek View Post
    I have a writing style I call, Defensive Writing

    I'm a Veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wars
    Yup, defensive writing is a very good idea on forums. Some folks invest themselves emotionally quite heavily in a product or process often with all of the fervor of a mother bear defending her cubs. IMHO, they need to take a deep breath because at this level most of the products are pretty darn good, so the wax/sealant/whatever wars are a bit on the silly side.

  5. #15
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleb G. View Post
    Hey Mike,

    In theory, is this another reason why letting a miscible wax or sealant 'cure' is important? Because *in theory* if you mix two miscible products together, wouldn't each product become diluted of its original formula as they mix?

    For example, if you put a sealant down that can last a month or so and then a wax that last just a few weeks, wouldn't you be weakening the lifespan of the sealant? I guess another way to look at it would be that you were improving the performance of the wax, though.

    Just a thought.

    Kaleb
    I thought I had something to say but I got confused...

  6. #16
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Gonna bump this after reading it....Great read Mike.

  7. #17
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyMetal View Post

    Yup, defensive writing is a very good idea on forums.

    Some folks invest themselves emotionally quite heavily in a product or process often with all of the fervor of a mother bear defending her cubs. IMHO, they need to take a deep breath because at this level most of the products are pretty darn good, so the wax/sealant/whatever wars are a bit on the silly side.
    Yup. I'm in my own zone when I'm on a forum, come from years of actually walking the walk, not just typing about it.



    Quote Originally Posted by S7ICKlVlAN View Post

    Gonna bump this after reading it....Great read Mike.

    Thank you sir. I try to write in a way that the information I lay down will endure over time.



  8. #18
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Thanks for the bump, gave me something new to read.

    My view is as one previous poster - there is a lot of marketing involved when it comes to product compatability. My most amusing anecdote on this is one supplier who insists that the surface must be clean and you must use their preparation product. Unfortunately for them, their prep product has a load silicone oils and will leave the surface anything but clean - so clearly their marketing is nonsense. Whether this is generic or not, I would not like to say.

    My own experience in formulation leads me to the manufacture of 'parasitic' products. Products which will 'bond' (I use this term loosely, just like the bond strengths...) to almost anything. I can understand why brands would seek to have users depend on a larger share of the products base but I certainly have found it notably difficult to develop products which genuinely rely on each other to work, at least when it comes to the traditional LSP sector.

    Of course this is flipped on its head when it comes to the more technological products. I absolutely agree on cleanliness - there are very specific bonds (not loose ones!) which will indeed fail to form if contaminated. You can probably appreciate this simply from the variability of products in these sectors. A traditional LSP product can be (and is, if you look at the products) tweaked to give almost any appearance, whether is is high gloss, high colour enhancement, clarity, etc. The high tech products are enormously more complex, you cannot simply add a silicone oil or bump the carnauba content to achieve another appearance - these would be contaminants which could not be tolerated.

    When it comes down to it, I favour the use of a highly volatile panel wipe (good for lifting non-polar contaminants) followed by IPA (for the removal of any remnant light oils from the panel wipe). If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.

  9. #19
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Megane View Post

    Thanks for the bump, gave me something new to read.
    Have you been through the entire list yet?

    Articles by Mike Phillips


    I added about 20 new articles last week and have a couple more dozen to add still...






    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Megane View Post

    When it comes down to it, I favour the use of a highly volatile panel wipe (good for lifting non-polar contaminants) followed by IPA (for the removal of any remnant light oils from the panel wipe).
    The only problem with the above is that the person doing the wiping must be very careful PLUS use premium quality wiping cloths so as not to re-introduce marring back into the paint as some chemical stripping products are not also GREAT lubricants.

    I point this out in detail here with pictures using black paint to make the point...


    Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer


    Wiped very thoroughly with Mineral Spirits



    Any marring you see now is not "holograms" but marring from wiping. Keep in mind, clear coats are "Scratch-Sensitive" and when working on BLACK paint even the lightest defects show up, that's why I always test on black paint.



    I think it's pretty obvious that there are zero holograms or rotary buffer swirls in the paint...



    Next I wiped the panel down with IPA at 12.5%. Note when I wiped the panel down both with MS and IPA I dragged the panel into the shade first.



    Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a horrible lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called working backwards. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Megane View Post

    If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.

    At a minimum, it can't possibly do any harm to work within a system approach when using a reputable brand of products. For example, after polishing or using a pre-wax paint cleaner from Brand X, follow that with an LSP from Brand X.

    What do you have to lose?




    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Megane View Post

    If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.
    And then we're back to here... this article I wrote in 1994...


    "Find something you like and use it often"


    And here's what the above quote means...



    If you like a product, that usually means you like the experience of using it which includes application, that is you like how the product applies. It also tends to mean you like how the product removes, that is you like how the product wipes-off. It can also mean you like how fast or slow it dries or the fact that it doesn't have to dry at all and you can wipe it off immediately.

    And usually and most important, it means you like how it makes the paint on your car look and that's a huge part of the big picture of owning and enjoying your car, truck or s.u.v. or special interest car.

    You can't really know which product you like best until you've used a variety of products so finding something you like and using it often means you have to do some research and at some point make some purchases and then go out into your garage and do some testing to gain real world knowledge and experience.

    At some point you will find a product you like and if you use it often then your car's paint will always look good because it's only when you neglect your car's paint that it goes downhill.

    Just the simple act of applying and working-in and over the paint a smooth, creamy product, (that is formulated to make paint look good), has a polishing-effect and if done on a regular basis will preserve and maintain a clear, glossy finish and isn't that the primary goal of those that consider them serious car enthusiasts?

    How often you have to repeat this process to maintain your car's finish to a quality level you expect for your car's appearance depends upon how the car is used and where it's parked when not in use.

    A daily driver that is parked outside most of the time, either at work or at home, will need to be maintained more regularly than a Garage Queen that is only driven on sunny days. So adjust your car maintenance schedule to fit your lifestyle and the way you use your car.


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  11. #20
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    Re: Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek View Post
    Have you been through the entire list yet?

    Articles by Mike Phillips


    I added about 20 new articles last week and have a couple more dozen to add still...


    Oh I work my way through a bit at a time - keeping up with chemical updates tends to keep me fairly busy!

    Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a horrible lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called working backwards. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.
    Good point there, Mike. As you have likely gathered, detailing is only my minor! I would tend not to dilute my IPA (though in fairness I actually use ethanol, to be awkward!) just as far as you so will have a bit more help on the lubricating side as it flashes but I do take your meaning - when you point it out, this step is probably un-necessary as long as you use a low enough flash point organic as the primary wipe.


    At a minimum, it can't possibly do any harm to work within a system approach when using a reputable brand of products. For example, after polishing or using a pre-wax paint cleaner from Brand X, follow that with an LSP from Brand X.

    What do you have to lose?


    Oh it cannot do any harm at all - I did not mean to contradict on that. I just believe that a pre-wax cleanser should be just that - if the LSP requires cleanser X and no other then I am tempted to suggest that the cleanser X is probably more of an AIO (laying something down to aid the bonding) than the cleanser. Of course that is nit-picking. I guess what I am in fact alluding to is that the use of terminology in this area is rather ambiguous and what the user perhaps expects from the product category may not match entirely what the product is doing.

    Mind you - the terminology is a lot better than what the chemical industry uses. Talk to the big manufacturers and a polish could mean anything from a pure cleanser through to a wax with heavy compound abrasives!

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