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  1. #21
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET View Post
    Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots.
    This is were a seasoned and expert Paint Instructor from a paint manufacturer would really come in handy to ask questions because I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind.


    Quote Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET View Post
    They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road.
    I lived in the Mojave Desert for over 7 years, it's very WINDY in the desert and very SANDY in the desert. There are times when I"ve been driving down residential roads where the wind was blowing so hard and there was so much dirt/dust/SAND in the air that it sounded and felt like your car's paint was being sand blasted.

    I've operated sand blasters for a job at one time, my friend built the largest sand blaster I've ever seen, this thing could cut through metal if you held the nozzle in once place to long.

    I taught classes at Meguiar's from 2002 through 2009 and one thing I've seen a lot of is hoods and bumpers and even windshields that look like they've been sand blasted and if I were to ask the person if they drove to Las Vegas a lot the answer would usually be "Yes". The highway from Orange County to Las Vegas is the I-15, I drove the I-15 every time I drove to work and a few times from Apple Valley to Las Vegas or Lake Havasu, when the wind kicks up which is most of the time your car will be hit by dirt, dust, debris and sand as you drive and it will leave pinholes or craters and chipped paint on the front of your car.

    It certainly made me never want to own a nice car if I were to have to drive the I-15 a lot. Luckily I worked from home and only had to drive from Apple Valley to Irvine for when I had a class to teach. Point being... I've seen sand blasted cars and it's a different look than pinholes from solvent popping.

    Here is what solvent popping looks like, I took this picture from the 1957 Chevrolet I buffed out last summer using the Flex 3401. This cannot be fixed because as I was quoted from another thread [in this thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips
    No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.
    Here's the thread and here are the pictures with my comments from that thread dated,

    1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips
    This is the after side. The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

    No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

    Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.




    And a shot right on the tape-line...



    Quote Originally Posted by ASPHALT ROCKET View Post
    They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint.
    Also, usually after polishing, since a lot of polishes are white or whitish in color and also tend to dry very white, the pinholes or craters stand out like a Sore Thumb because they are now filled with white residue and it contrast against medium to dark color paints.




    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    Ok, after some further investigation, I gave some bad info. I noticed that the dots start at about 6" from the front of the hood (where I would expect them to be worse if they were road-blasting) and all the way to the back of the hood from left to right. I also do not see any dots on the front of any of the fenders. I believe it has something to do with the paint but I need an expert to look at it to confirm this.
    Like I stated above, I've seen a lot of "FACTORY" paint with what looks like solvent popping, whether it's actually solvent popping or not I don't know. All I know is that one of the things we did at all the Meguiar's classes is take daily driver cars that were thrashed and polish them out to a clear, swirl-free shine and after doing this often times these tiny holes or craters show up in the paint.

    It's usually very disappointing to the owner of the car but there's really nothing you can do outside of having the affected panel re-painted.

    Here's one idea but I'm not officially saying this is the problem. When a problem happens to just the hood of a car, one thing that could be a factor is HEAT, as in heat rising off the engine.

    The problem with this idea is that the pinholes or craters, because they tend to be throughout the layer or matrix of paint doesn't make sense because the paint is cured hard by the time any substantial heat from the engine can be transferred to the hood by driving it for periods of time, so while it's an influencing factor, my guess is that it's not really a problem at least as it's related to pinholes in factory paint.

    My guess is the problem takes place during the painting process and it's actually somehow sub-surface and then when the finish is machine polished and some of the top layer of paint is removed the underlying craters appear.

    This is just a guess because I've worked on a zillion hoods and often times you don't see the pinholes before polishing but you do after polishing. It could be they are present before you start polishing and you're eyes just can see them due to the swirls and other defects camouflaging them but it would take some methodical testing to troubleshoot or isolated this factor and when you're teaching a class with about 30 people in it you really don't have this kind of time to get this deep.

    Another theory I've had for some time is that these pinholes or craters are areas with softer paint, or somehow defective from the spraying process and after machine buffing with anything abrasive you remove, or even pull-out paint from these tiny areas and get this pinhole looking effect. (Just some guessing)



    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post

    Per OGauge's PM, I tried the "hand in a baggie" and I was impressed at how much this can tell about the finish. It magnified x1000 what can be felt by hand.
    Just to note, we show the plastic baggie technique in this video...

    Direct Link: How detailing clay works and how to use detailing clay to remove above surface bonded contaminants

    It does dramatically increase the sensitivity of your sense of touch...



    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    I think my next step is to have someone experienced take a look at it. Because if it is a problem with the paint, it shouldn't be doing that and Toyota is going to hear about it especially in light of how I take care of my truck plus it's still under warranty.

    Still learning,
    Paul
    Everyone reading this thread now and into the future would love to hear what Toyota says about the problem so if possible, please do follow-up this thread with any conclusions they come up with.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHenry View Post
    I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

    Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

    If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.
    I'm vindicating you on your post John, I've seen this problem all the time and it really doesn't seem to show up till after a thorough machine cleaning and polishing as stated above. You can only imagine how much fun it is to show a class of 20 to 50 people a swirl-free finish but a finish with pinholes after being polished and all you can do at that point is try to explain it and it's never fun and most people, especially the car owner are usually disappointed in their cars' paint.


    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    *****UPDATE*****

    So now that spring is here and the sun is shining in Ohio, I decided to take the truck back to Toyota for the dots on the hood which are still there. I rode with the service manager to a local body shop (not Toyota) where they take their work to.

    The guy at the body shop said that the dots were in the clear coat and that they would try a few things before resorting to completely repainting the entire hood.
    Confirmation and vindication of everything we're all discussing here on the forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    *****QUESTIONS*****

    The body shop indicated that they could try wet sanding w/ 3000 to see if that removes the dots. Which to me brings a whole new set of concerns about this whole process. I told them that I don't want to be left with a minuscule amount of clear when they're all done. I told him also that I didn't want a glaze which to me is just a band aid until my warranty ends next January (2011) and the glaze "wears off." I don't know the first thing about this body shop other than that this dealership takes their vehicles there.
    You nailed all the important points that --> you <-- will be affected by.

    • Sanding removes paint
    • Buffing out sanding marks removes a little more paint
    • Factory paint is thin to start with

    While this can be done safely, you bought and paid for a "new" car with all the paint that came from the factory, not a whisper thin coating as a result of having to have the car repaired for a problem out of your control.

    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    HOW SHOULD I HANDLE THIS???? What should I insist on happening? Can clear coat be reapplied after the wet sand if the existing clear becomes too thin?
    Taking great pictures and documenting this on a public forum is a great way to start. Clear can be re-cleared but most reputable painters are going to want to start over and re-paint both the basecoat and the clearcoat.


    The bigger picture is that this is a problem for lots of car owners they just don't know it because they're not into detailing their cars and hanging out on discussion forums.

    Keep us updated and I'll make a few phone calls to see if I can dig up some more information on this problem.



  2. #22
    Regular Member ph16's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Thank you very, very much Mike. I really appreciate the input above and any to follow. The pin holes look exactly like what is on the vette pictured. And they did show up after the first time I polished the hood. I believe I was using Menzerna 106 and 85 and a grey then blue pad.

  3. #23
    Super Member A4 1.8tqm's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek View Post
    I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind.
    I guess that ends my suspicion of factory solvent popping or not, Thanks Mike! (I thought so)

    Quote Originally Posted by A4 1.8tqm View Post
    IMO if the shop thinks they can get them out with 3000 grit, I wouldn't have them work on my car at all. Good luck
    Quote Originally Posted by O.C.Detailing View Post
    Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again
    I didn't mean that I think sanding is too aggressive, what I meant was if the shop thinks they can remove these divots by wet sanding with 3000, it shows a lack of knowledge. The defects are through the clear and wet sanding will not improve the situation at all. That's why I wouldn't want them working on my car. Good info though Adam.

    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    ...the entire visit was leaning in my favor. Anyhow, the manager is going to call me next week at which time I'll ask point blank, "This is under warranty right?" I mean, I'm still well within my 3yr/36k. It sounded to me like they wanted me to tell them how to proceed.
    Be sure to let us know how it gets handled, good luck!

  4. #24
    Regular Member ph16's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Here are some more photos if it's helpful . . .




    I have some higher resolution pics but they were too large for the AG site upload size restriction.

  5. #25
    Super Member A4 1.8tqm's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    I have some higher resolution pics but they were too large for the AG site upload size restriction.
    If I'm not mistaken, the pics should just resize on their own when you import them.

  6. #26
    Regular Member ph16's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by A4 1.8tqm View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, the pics should just resize on their own when you import them.
    It just says, "upload of file failed." They're >2.5Mb which is above the stated maximum size.

  7. #27
    Regular Member ph16's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    **UPDATE**

    I dropped off the truck to Toyota this morning so that they could work on the dots in the hood. Toyota takes this kind of work to a local autobody shop. I just got off the phone with the person at the autobody shop who told me that they tried wet sanding and could not remove the dots. He then indicated that the Toyota service manager instructed him to do whatever is necessary to FIX this problem. So he told me that they were going to sand the hood down (not quite to primer or bare metal), seal it for good adhesion, reshoot the color and then clear it followed by a 175&#176; bake.

    Sound reasonable and/or correct? I'm not knowledgable of the paining process but nothing stuck out as a red flag to me.

    The body shop did indicate to me that he thought it might have been acid rain or something but I just don't buy that as a reason and that it would be that deep. That combined with how I care for my vehicle(s) just doesn't add up. Acid rain is definitly possible considering where I live but I just don't think it would do that kind of damage that quickly AND be isolated to the hood and nowhere else. I swear it looks EXACTLY like the solvent popping photo that Mike posted.

    I'm more than pleased with Toyota - maybe they're out to please customers at all costs these days. If it was acid rain, then it's not Toyota's fault.
    Last edited by ph16; 04-12-2010 at 01:32 PM. Reason: added toyota comment

  8. #28
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ph16 View Post
    **UPDATE**


    Sound reasonable and/or correct? I'm not knowledgeable of the paining process but nothing stuck out as a red flag to me.


    Thanks for the update. Their process sounds fine and it maybe a little more complicated than what he told you on the phone if they're a reputable shop they you'll get a good paint job out of the deal.

    I might have asked about getting an extra coat of clear for any problems in the future, like bird droppings or acid rain etchings, even would have offered to pay for time, labor and materials for the extra coat, while it's in there and all.


    I do agree with you in that the problem is not acid rain, I've seen it in too may factory paint jobs and always seemingly on the hood.

    Again, thank you for keeping us posted, all to often when ti comes to a cool thread like this we never get the follow-up and there are plenty of forum members that find this thread interesting and it may help others into the future.



  9. #29
    Regular Member ph16's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    **UPDATE AND THANK YOU**

    Well, I picked up the truck from Toyota yesterday and the hood looks awesome. NO MORE DOTS! Below are the photos taken at the same time as the dots typically are easiest to see. Even though they are going to cover it under warranty, they now think something "ate" down into the paint. I have my doubts about that and we'll never know for sure. Thank you everyone at AG for your help during this time and thanks to Toyota for standing by their product.

    Now what? Do I have to wait the proverbial months before polishing/waxing? Is it still "soft" so I should be extraordinarily careful more so than I would ordinarily be? Should the restriction that my wife cannot drive my truck continue (j/k)? Any suggestions?




  10. #30
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    Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

    Yes you have to wait a bit for the paint to dry before waxing. I got some body work done and you can tell the difference in the feel of the paint. I am being very gentle to the paint. If you can also leave it parked outside so the new paint can bake on that helps a lot, too.

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