Why use toppers instead of doing a decon wash when performance drops?

[ryeguy]

Is there an advantage to using cure, wetcoat, or bathe+ instead of doing a decon wash if it looks like the water behavior is declining? If the coating is meant to last 2-3 years then I would assume poor water shedding behavior just means the coating is "clogged" and removing tar and iron from the surface would fix it. I'd also be worried that these toppers have inferior gloss or self-cleaning behavior compared to the coating itself, but maybe that's wrong?

[psnt1ol]

Is there an advantage to using cure, wetcoat, or bathe+ instead of doing a decon wash if it looks like the water behavior is declining? If the coating is meant to last 2-3 years then I would assume poor water shedding behavior just means the coating is "clogged" and removing tar and iron from the surface would fix it. I'd also be worried that these toppers have inferior gloss or self-cleaning behavior compared to the coating itself, but maybe that's wrong?

I think you just open a can of worms.... LOL

Technically speaking... a topper is not needed for a coating. As you said, a PH neutral tar or iron remover could unclog the coating and so would a good maintenance soap like Reset on a regular basis.

A good complimentary topper to a coating could prolong the life of the coating. I installed a 3 year coating on a client's DD a while back. I showed him how to maintained it with a spray on topper every few months. The protection didnt fade until year 6. It exceeded both of our expectations. The owner's religious regiment was a big contributing factor but still.... 6 years??? LOL

BTW... finding a complimentary topper to a coating is the key. Most reputable coating manufacturers developed toppers for their coating so I would start there. The trail and error with different brands approach can be fun but then .... you would end up like me (all these products everywhere in the garage that I only used once or twice).

[ryeguy]

A good complimentary topper to a coating could prolong the life of the coating. I installed a 3 year coating on a client's DD a while back. I showed him how to maintained it with a spray on topper every few months. The protection didnt fade until year 6. It exceeded both of our expectations. The owner's religious regiment was a big contributing factor but still.... 6 years??? LOL

That's another thing I'm curious about. Doesn't religiously using a topper mean it's harder to tell when the coating has failed because you don't know which is responsible for the water behavior?

[The Guz]

A decon wash should be done fairly often anyway. Follow the manufacturers recommendations.

First thing to “fail” on a coating is the hydrophobic layer but the coating is still on the paint.

A topper will maintain that layer. The thing about a topper is that a person goes overboard and uses them way to often along with combining it with any of the other above mentioned products.

As an example the new Gyeon Evo coating come with a maintenance booklet and in that maintenance booklet they state to top it monthly. That’s it.

Meaning one does not need a wash and coat and then top it with a spray topper. Wash & Coats are not that great anyway.

There was a post I made a few years ago and I could never find it again where I had relayed that P&S Bead Maker has been lab proven to extend the life of a coating by something like a year or year and a half.

As mentioned find something works in conjunction with that coating to maintain it.

[ryeguy]

This video scared me off of beadmaker as a topper. It looks like hydrophobic behavior dropped when applying over a coating. I suppose it could work if the coating has completely failed, but this is exactly what I'm afraid of: if the topper actually causes worse behavior.

[The Guz]

No topper will have the same effect as the coating.

[psnt1ol]

That's another thing I'm curious about. Doesn't religiously using a topper mean it's harder to tell when the coating has failed because you don't know which is responsible for the water behavior?

From my experience... most spray on toppers on a coating only last 4-6 weeks at best. You could see the hydrophobic property degrades but it would come back after a wash with a good soap like Reset. That would tell you your coating is still intact.

[Coatingsarecrack]

That's another thing I'm curious about. Doesn't religiously using a topper mean it's harder to tell when the coating has failed because you don't know which is responsible for the water behavior?

I mainly top to add looks in summer. You should do both. I decon wash every 6 months and top monthly with an LSP as i agree with you that you will only get 4-6 weeks on a coating.

I apply a QD weekly on washing. A decon wash will get rid of most of the toppers as well as traffic film.


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[Loach]

There will be a difference if the performance is dropping because the hydrophobic effect of the coating is actually wearing, or dropping because it's become clogged with contamination or an abundance of toppers. If the coating is wearing, then no amount of decon is going to work, and can possibly make things even worse off on a fragile coating if the decon is heavy enough. Certain toppers may be a good option to even things out with a satisfying experience during the follow up washes until you fully remove the coating and start fresh.

I still like the philosophy of lighter toppers to maintain a healthy coating, because in my case I will build up hard water contamination fast enough to where the paint just doesn't feel silky or smooth after drying, well beyond the already not-as-slick effect most silica-based coatings offer from the start. And hopefully the topper is compatible enough to not have a large impact on what I like to see out of it during follow-up washes, while getting rid of that grabbiness after drying. Or if I'm washing outside or have no garage access, I'll always get some sort of drip lines that I want to clean up with something.

My other option would have been to go with a dedicated waterspot remover, however I've seen some fresh coatings be destroyed or impacted by them, Skin EVO on top of two coats of Mohs EVO being the latest I've tested that did not respond well to Gyeon WaterSpot, Mohs EVO by itself held up perfectly. No amount of decon washes or follow-ups was able to get Skin back to its performance prior to using WaterSpot. My only option would be to top it up with whatever.

This leads us into which types of toppers to use, and this is possibly paint dependent. Sandro's use of Bead Maker on top of CQuartz coatings showed a decrease as shown in the video above, whereas Bead Maker on top of my CQUK 3.0 and CQuartz TiO2 on the test 2010 Honda was absolutely perfect, it maintained the hydrophobics extremely well on CQUK and even boosted TiO2 to better than what I was seeing when it was bare and fresh and months since the last Bead Maker application. So CQUK/TiO2 curing into this sticky type of Honda paint could potentially respond better, last longer, and be more compatible with a greater range of toppers compared to it curing on top of different paint, just a hypothesis.

Bead Maker responded well to every single coating that I applied to that Honda, up until the point to where the coatings were degraded enough to where they needed a more hydrophobic topper or proper decon to be able to maintain high performance during the next washes. This is why I was a big advocate for it, although if you put Bead Maker on top of something like the insanely hydrophobic Zymol waxes, you will immediately reduce their hydrophobic effect and you'll never get that back (which may be fine because their peak performance by themselves does not last long in the real world anyways).

Heavier toppers I've not been a fan of early, except for Polish Angel. Trying to top CQUK with something heavy like Turtle Wax Seal N Shine, Flex Wax or something like Griot's Ceramic 3-in-1 Wax is going to overwhelm the coating with that topper, and you're almost guaranteed to reduce hydrophobic effect. I would assume if CQUK had any sort of advantage in self-cleaning or dirty shedding and then you go and put those on top, you're going to get whatever they offer until CQUK sheds them off the paint, which I can guarantee you is not as good as fresh and healthy CQUK. Same with Brilliant Shine Detailer, it'll take longer to shed off the coating which is fine if the coating is already worn out, but just not necessary if the coating is healthy if my only goal is to maintain some sort of slickness. Polish Angel is hydrophobic enough to where it seems like it plays well with the coatings, and I didn't get the impression that they were clogging them compared to Seal N Shine and Griot's.

With heavier top coats like Skin EVO, Can Coat, Gliss, EXO, I wouldn't hesitate as much to use them because by themselves they are great performers (aside from Skin EVO since it hasn't been out long enough to confirm). But same story, you put Skin EVO over two coats of Mohs EVO and you're getting Skin's performance. Which means less oleophobic, less chemical resistance against acid-based waterspot removers, but overall more hydrophobic.

I would recommend periodic decon washes and steps down the road to maintain the coating, regardless if you're topping regularly or not. But if you're planning on using toppers, I would guess that it may take some experimenting to find the topper that is going to provide you what you want to see, which may differ from someone else using the same coatings and toppers on different cars and paints. For me, letting the coating run its course bare without anything is not an option.

[Coatingsarecrack]

There will be a difference if the performance is dropping because the hydrophobic effect of the coating is actually wearing, or dropping because it's become clogged with contamination or an abundance of toppers. If the coating is wearing, then no amount of decon is going to work, and can possibly make things even worse off on a fragile coating if the decon is heavy enough. Certain toppers may be a good option to even things out with a satisfying experience during the follow up washes until you fully remove the coating and start fresh.

I still like the philosophy of lighter toppers to maintain a healthy coating, because in my case I will build up hard water contamination fast enough to where the paint just doesn't feel silky or smooth after drying, well beyond the already not-as-slick effect most silica-based coatings offer from the start. And hopefully the topper is compatible enough to not have a large impact on what I like to see out of it during follow-up washes, while getting rid of that grabbiness after drying. Or if I'm washing outside or have no garage access, I'll always get some sort of drip lines that I want to clean up with something.

My other option would have been to go with a dedicated waterspot remover, however I've seen some fresh coatings be destroyed or impacted by them, Skin EVO on top of two coats of Mohs EVO being the latest I've tested that did not respond well to Gyeon WaterSpot, Mohs EVO by itself held up perfectly. No amount of decon washes or follow-ups was able to get Skin back to its performance prior to using WaterSpot. My only option would be to top it up with whatever.

This leads us into which types of toppers to use, and this is possibly paint dependent. Sandro's use of Bead Maker on top of CQuartz coatings showed a decrease as shown in the video above, whereas Bead Maker on top of my CQUK 3.0 and CQuartz TiO2 on the test 2010 Honda was absolutely perfect, it maintained the hydrophobics extremely well on CQUK and even boosted TiO2 to better than what I was seeing when it was bare and fresh and months since the last Bead Maker application. So CQUK/TiO2 curing into this sticky type of Honda paint could potentially respond better, last longer, and be more compatible with a greater range of toppers compared to it curing on top of different paint, just a hypothesis.

Bead Maker responded well to every single coating that I applied to that Honda, up until the point to where the coatings were degraded enough to where they needed a more hydrophobic topper or proper decon to be able to maintain high performance during the next washes. This is why I was a big advocate for it, although if you put Bead Maker on top of something like the insanely hydrophobic Zymol waxes, you will immediately reduce their hydrophobic effect and you'll never get that back (which may be fine because their peak performance by themselves does not last long in the real world anyways).

Heavier toppers I've not been a fan of early, except for Polish Angel. Trying to top CQUK with something heavy like Turtle Wax Seal N Shine, Flex Wax or something like Griot's Ceramic 3-in-1 Wax is going to overwhelm the coating with that topper, and you're almost guaranteed to reduce hydrophobic effect. I would assume if CQUK had any sort of advantage in self-cleaning or dirty shedding and then you go and put those on top, you're going to get whatever they offer until CQUK sheds them off the paint, which I can guarantee you is not as good as fresh and healthy CQUK. Same with Brilliant Shine Detailer, it'll take longer to shed off the coating which is fine if the coating is already worn out, but just not necessary if the coating is healthy if my only goal is to maintain some sort of slickness. Polish Angel is hydrophobic enough to where it seems like it plays well with the coatings, and I didn't get the impression that they were clogging them compared to Seal N Shine and Griot's.

With heavier top coats like Skin EVO, Can Coat, Gliss, EXO, I wouldn't hesitate as much to use them because by themselves they are great performers (aside from Skin EVO since it hasn't been out long enough to confirm). But same story, you put Skin EVO over two coats of Mohs EVO and you're getting Skin's performance. Which means less oleophobic, less chemical resistance against acid-based waterspot removers, but overall more hydrophobic.

I would recommend periodic decon washes and steps down the road to maintain the coating, regardless if you're topping regularly or not. But if you're planning on using toppers, I would guess that it may take some experimenting to find the topper that is going to provide you what you want to see, which may differ from someone else using the same coatings and toppers on different cars and paints. For me, letting the coating run its course bare without anything is not an option.

Have you ever used Shinee Wax? Looking for application info.


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