Help! My first detail project, and its a 26ft boat!

[RamAirV1]

Even the lowly Porter Cable 7424XP would be a great choice and serve you well for decades.


I know a lot of guys like the Makita PO500C and for the price, you'll never experience pad stall so it will work. But for what it's worth, I have 6 or 7 of these out in the garage and I never use them. While the difference between 5mm and 8mm may seem like a small matter, 8mm trumps 5mm all day long when it comes to busting out a job. It's true, 5mm is more precise and that's due to the shorter stroke but once you learn the way of the BEAST you can make it do anything.


The Mille is like the Makita, they are both 5mm and thus both are precise and I know a lot of guys like both, if the Makita is available for your Electrical Power supply their in New Zealand, then it would be just as good an option as the Mille, in my hands-on experience.

Because you can use the Makita PO5000C in the gear-driven mode, you'll never have to "think" or "watch" for pad rotation, same for Mille, so "yes" they will both power through any kind of detail in my opinion, faster than any free-spinning tool.

If the BEAST is available in your Electrical Current, then I would get the BEAST. There's a reason you never see used units for sale and when you do, it's rare. Snap it up.

After trying the 5000C during your class, I really liked it and thought about getting one. But alas, I waited too long and it eventually was discontinued on AG. I wound up getting the G9 because it was a great value, has more power than my 7424XP, and I could use my store credit. I have not had a chance to use my new G9 yet, but I am expecting good things from it. I was just wondering which is the more important spec, 9mm vs. 5mm throw, or forced rotation vs. free spinning?

RamAirV1

[Dan NZ]

Wow Mike, where to begin?! Thank you!!

I have been doing a lot of reading, all of the posts you have recommended and then some! I even read all 26 pages of the Makita/Mille/Flex post and came away with a good feel for the pros and cons. In aviation when you are told something, you always have to read it back just so that both parties understand they are on the same page. If I was to surmise the three days I have spent on your site I would read back the following:

1 - Wet sand if needed
2 - Remove wet sanding scratches with a rotary buffer
3 - Buff with an orbital and a blue coarse Rupes pad
4 - Wax, or strip and seal with a ceramic

Don't mess with success right!?

STEP 1 - Wet sand. I will be doing this by hand I think, as painful as this may be I just feel I can control the process and that the results with 2000 grit might not be as aggressive done by hand as they could be by machine (I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG ON THAT)

The Gradey White brand is a top shelf brand of hulls. I would expect the gel-coat to be in the 25 mils to 30 mils range. Take 10 3M Post-it Notes and staple them together and then FEEL the thickness as well as look at it and this would be a general idea of 30 mils, as a 3M Post-it Note is around 3 mils. (I use this example in my boat detailing classes where we machine sand gel-coat)

Brilliant! Clear, easy, tangible! I hope this is the case everywhere across my boat, however I think I might drill a small and shallow test hole in the area near the gas filler cap, this area shows some darker patches though the gel which might be the resin below. I had to push the black levels in Photoshop to make it more visible however it is still hard to see in the picture. This is a 100% crop which also show some crazing in the same area. I have some factory gel so its easy to patch a small hole. That's a gel issue not a polishing question mind you!



Re wood sanders, YES THAT IS MY BOCSH! I guess I should not have judged free spinning polishers by my experience with a sander!

STEP 2 - The Rotary buffer. After reproaching a step that I hoped to avoid, I realize that my first attempt at this was using a Makita spinning a 10 inch pad hemorrhaging compound in all directions. I wonder if I would have had better luck using a smaller pad? What size wool pad do you start your beginners on? Would you use the Menzerna HC400 for this stage too?

Step 3 - Sounds like the course blue Rupes pad is proven, don't mess with it. Now I have to choose a buffing tool to spin it! I can purchase the Flex 3401 for $716, and the Makita PO500c for $389. This question really comes from my wife (and I don't wish to become divorced either), and she asked; "You don't do this every day Dan, do you really need the more expensive tool? Will the Makita get the job done?". Normally I wouldn't even question spending the extra money, but someone ate a bat and now the world has turned upside down and I have to make a business case for most of my current spending. Have you tried the Makita with the Rupes pad on any of your boat projects? Will it work or should I bite the bullet and get the FLEX even though I may have to sleep in my new boat for a couple of nights??

As far as compounds go, I can get the full range of the Menzerna grits, but I can also get the Rupes Zephir Coarse that you demonstrate in your post on the topic. In lieu of being able to get any Marine 31 products, could you recommend one over the other on gelcoat?

STEP 4 - Might leave that for another day, however is a forced rotation DA suitable for spreading wax and does one run the risk of dulling the Gelcoat with soft foam pads as was mentioned in other posts (albeit with a cutting compound, no mention of wax)?

My replay to Aaryn went away.. I think I closed the webpage before I hit send! DOH! I live in Auckland and he lives in Blenheim if his signature is correct. Unfortunately that is 475 miles and a 3 hour ferry crossing away from where I am! Great idea though, and it is amazing how we kiwis find each other on forums like this among thousands of users!
T
hank you for this amazing resource, and THANK YOU SO MUCH for the time you take to answer questions that must seem to get flogged I am sure!
I look forward to resuming flights to America and I hope you ship products to hotels as I will not forget this help when the time rolls around to do all this again!

Regards,
Dan

[Dan NZ]

A couple of my replies are missing... Do they need approval or have I done something goofy? One was a quick reply, the other an advanced reply?

[Aaryn NZ]

A couple of my replies are missing... Do they need approval or have I done something goofy? One was a quick reply, the other an advanced reply?

Don’t normally need approval mate , so not too sure.

Repost??



Aaryn NZ.

[Dan NZ]

Wow Mike, where to begin?! Thank you!!

I have been doing a lot of reading, all of the posts you have recommended and then some! I even read all 26 pages of the Makita/Mille/Flex post and came away with a good feel for the pros and cons. In aviation when you are told something, you always have to read it back just so that both parties understand they are on the same page. If I was to surmise the three days I have spent on your site I would read back the following:

1 - Wet sand if needed
2 - Remove oxidation/wet sanding scratches with a rotary buffer
3 - Buff with an orbital and a blue coarse Rupes pad
4 - Wax, or strip and seal with a ceramic

Don't mess with success right!?

STEP 1 - Wet sand. I will be doing this by hand I think, as painful as this may be I just feel I can control the process and that the results with 2000 grit might not be as aggressive done by hand as they could be by machine (I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG ON THAT)

The Gradey White brand is a top shelf brand of hulls. I would expect the gel-coat to be in the 25 mils to 30 mils range. Take 10 3M Post-it Notes and staple them together and then FEEL the thickness as well as look at it and this would be a general idea of 30 mils, as a 3M Post-it Note is around 3 mils. (I use this example in my boat detailing classes where we machine sand gel-coat)

Brilliant! Clear, easy, tangible! I hope this is the case everywhere across my boat, however I think I might drill a small and shallow test hole in the area near the gas filler cap, this area shows some darker patches though the gel which might be the resin below. I had to push the black levels in Photoshop to make it more visible however it is still hard to see in the picture. This is a 100% crop which also show some crazing in the same area. I have some factory gel so its easy to patch a small hole. That's a gel issue not a polishing question mind you!



Re wood sanders, YES THAT IS MY BOSCH! I guess I should not have judged free spinning polishers by my experience with a sander!

STEP 2 - The Rotary buffer. After reproaching a step that I hoped to avoid, I realize that my first attempt at this was using a Makita spinning a 10 inch pad hemorrhaging compound in all directions. I wonder if I would have had better luck using a smaller pad? What size wool pad do you start your beginners on? Would you use the Menzerna HC400 for this stage too?

Step 3 - Sounds like the course blue Rupes pad is proven, don't mess with it. Now I have to choose a buffing tool to spin it! I can purchase the Flex 3401 for $716, and the Makita PO500c for $389. This question really comes from my wife (and I don't wish to become divorced either), and she asked; "You don't do this every day Dan, do you really need the more expensive tool? Will the Makita get the job done?". Normally I wouldn't even question spending the extra money, but someone ate a bat and now the world has turned upside down and I have to make a business case for most of my current spending. Have you tried the Makita with the Rupes pad on any of your boat projects? Will it work or should I bite the bullet and get the FLEX even though I may have to sleep in my new boat for a couple of nights??

As far as compounds go, I can get the full range of the Menzerna grits, but I can also get the Rupes Zephir Coarse that you demonstrate in your post on the topic. In lieu of being able to get any Marine 31 products, could you recommend one over the other on gelcoat?

STEP 4 - Might leave that for another day, however is a forced rotation DA suitable for spreading wax and does one run the risk of dulling the Gelcoat with soft foam pads as was mentioned in other posts (albeit with a cutting compound, no mention of wax)?

My replay to Aaryn went away.. I think I closed the webpage before I hit send! DOH! I live in Auckland and he lives in Blenheim if his signature is correct. Unfortunately that is 475 miles and a 3 hour ferry crossing away from where I am! Great idea though, and it is amazing how we kiwis find each other on forums like this among thousands of users!

Thank you for this amazing resource, and THANK YOU SO MUCH for the time you take to answer questions that must seem to get flogged I am sure!
I look forward to resuming flights to America and I hope you ship products to hotels as I will not forget this help when the time rolls around to do all this again!

Regards,
Dan

[Dan NZ]

Thanks Aaryn, lucky I saved a copy before posting it! My reply to you has gone (or I did something wrong more likely!). To answer your question, I am up in Auckland, eastern suburbs. As a BOP boy I didn't really think Auckland could ever be a place I would call home, but career dictated otherwise! I have to say though, I had underestimated the how good life could be just 45min out of the city! The Hauraki Gulf is an absolute jewel, hence the need for a larger waka (Maori word for canoe for those outside our colloquial bubble)! Blenheim is beautiful as well, love the South Island! I have family over on the other coast in Golden Bay... Don't visit as often as I would like

[Aaryn NZ]

Nice.

Yes Dan, I am down here in Blenheim & yeah Mike is right, I would be more than happy to let you get some hands on time with the Flex 3401 (Beast) - I have a bunch of tools in my shop from a range of Manufacturers but Flex is dominant partly because of how they’re built - these this are TOUGH & have that typical German build quality. Is it RA Johnstones that have the 3401 at $716NZ? If you can swing it for that without too much time spent sleeping in the boat ... that’d be my pick.

I do not however own the Makita PO-5000 but I have enough time with one in hand to know I don’t want one. Don’t get me wrong, it’s an okay tool just not for me.

As for your compounds, yes Menzerna & RUPES will hold their own with Marine 31, they all use fantastic abrasive technology & Mike will confirm this - that is key. Oh, & yes, absolutely you can lay down a wax or synthetic sealant with a gear driven polisher.

Rotary & wool pads - 7 inch is an average size & pretty manageable & RA Johnstone, Wyatts, Sorry, not 100% on UCC, umm - Cam at 3D, they’ll all have good wool pads suitable for Rotary use.

I’m honestly not the best guy to talk to in terms of boat detailing, I don’t tend to do enough to know my stuff. Mike Phillips on the other hand - find me somebody ... anybody who has even 0.1 percent of the content documented anywhere that Mike does on boat detailing/gel coat restoration.

If you need help with tools, pads, products etc I can’t promise anything but I can see if I can get you taken care of.

O & hey - apologies for your work situation buddy ...


Aaryn NZ.

[Mike Phillips]

A couple of my replies are missing... Do they need approval or have I done something goofy? One was a quick reply, the other an advanced reply?

Yes, something in you post was flagged by the vBulletin software and the software "Moderated" the post.

I just found it in the Moderation Queue and approved it.


I'll take a look and see if I can find anything that would have caused this?

[Mike Phillips]

After trying the 5000C during your class, I really liked it and thought about getting one. But alas, I waited too long and it eventually was discontinued on AG.

Yeperdoo - the tool sold so slowly that management made the decision that once the supply sold out Autogeek would no longer offer it.

This happens to any thing that doesn't sell well.

I wound up getting the G9 because it was a great value, has more power than my 7424XP, and I could use my store credit. I have not had a chance to use my new G9 yet, but I am expecting good things from it.

The key with this tool as my good friend Kirby established is making sure the pad is flat to the surface. This means holding the body of the tool in such away as to accomplish this.

With the longer tool chassis, (I love that term to describe the body of a tool), you and your grip plus arm muscles and even arm weight can have leverage over the face of the pad and how it presses against a body panel. If you have too much pressure on the forward handle the forward portion of the face of the pad will have leverage over the reciprocating components of the tool and cause pad stall.

If you have too much pressure on the rear grip, same thing only the the rear portion of the face of the pad will have leverage over the reciprocating components of the tool causing pad stall.

When you get a feel for how to hold the tool chassis to keep the pad flat to the surface as Dennis Gage would say,

It's a beautiful thing


And for those reading this into the future, here's the link to my in-depth review for the Griot's G9

Review: Griot's G9 - 9mm Orbit Stroke Random Orbital Polisher by Mike Phillips



Griot's G9 - 9mm Orbit Stroke Random Orbital Polisher




And here's the first stand-out I shared for this tool after buffing out an old 2-door Chevy,

LOTS OF POWER!

This is the first tool I've used in my career where I didn't feel the need to go to the highest speed setting, which is 6 on the speed dial. It's that powerful, or better said, it's spins the pad so fast. I found myself running the tool on the 5 speed setting the majority of the time. Why is this important? Because I know my audience and they are looking for power. And in the context of a free spinning random orbital polisher power means the ability to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

This tool has TONS of power.

I used this tool in its factory configuration, that is with the factory installed 6" backing plate. I know most of you that have been reading my articles or have attended any of my classes know I show and recommend 5" backing plates for tools like this. Two reasons for this are,

1: With a 5" backing plate you can use 5.5" diameter buffing pads and simply put, smaller diameter pads tend to fit thinner body panels on modern cars better. That is you can buff out a section of a panel that has an edge on one side and a raised body line on the other side so you're never buffing on top of the edge or the body line. (good best practice)

2: Smaller, thin pads are easier for tools to maintain pad rotation. While this has been an issue historically, this isn't a problem with the new Griot's G9 - like I mentioned above, it has a TON of power.

I was just wondering which is the more important spec, 9mm vs. 5mm throw, or forced rotation vs. free spinning?

RamAirV1

Actually - that's absolute apples to oranges comparison. Kind of like before RUPES introduced the Mille, people would ask

What's the difference between the RUPES BigFoot 15mm and 21mm compared to the FLEX 8mm BEAST.

There just in no real comparison as the drive styles of so different.


Here's the practical difference between the Makita PO5000C 5mm gear-driven orbital polisher (also the 5mm RUPES Mille), and the Griot's G9 9mm free spinning random orbital polisher.

With the free spinning tools - you can get pad stalling
With gear-driven tools - zero pad stalling

Free spinning random orbital polishers tend to be less aggressive and more easy to perfect SOFT paints with versus any gear-driven tool.

I discuss this as far back as 2012 in this iconic write-up for an old 2-door Italian job in post #32

Christmas Detail - Ferrari P4 - Move over Rudolf

What made you decide to finish out with the GV110 vs the Flex?

Pad size selection or the non forced rotation maybe?

Good question...

I find on softer paints like this car has that the PC style with a Fine Cut Polish finishes out nicer than with the more powerful Flex 3401.

The paint on this car was incredibly soft.

I only did my test spot using the Flex 3401 and end-results were acceptable, I did the 8mm free spinning step just to "make sure".

I also machine applied the wax using the Meguiar's G110 polisher.

And in context, when I wrote this in 2012 - The Makita PO5000C and the RUPES Mille had NOT been invented yet.

If I were to re-write one of the original sentences in what I wrote above it would read like this,

I find on softer paints like this car has that the PC style with a Fine Cut Polish finishes out nicer than with the more powerful GEAR-DRIVEN orbital polishers like the FLEX BEAST, the Makita PO5000C and the RUPES Mille.

Meaning, if I would have done the compounding step with any of the currently available gear-driven tools on the market TODAY - I would have still performed the polishing step with one of the free spinning tools on the market today because they tend to be less powerful, less aggressive and thus better at finishing out nicer on softer paints all other factors considered.


That's deep, hope it makes sense.

And for anyone that has never read the above write-up, here's some eye candy from it.

[Mike Phillips]

Wow Mike, where to begin?! Thank you!!

I have been doing a lot of reading, all of the posts you have recommended and then some! I even read all 26 pages of the Makita/Mille/Flex post and came away with a good feel for the pros and cons. In aviation when you are told something, you always have to read it back just so that both parties understand they are on the same page. If I was to surmise the three days I have spent on your site I would read back the following:

1 - Wet sand if needed
2 - Remove oxidation/wet sanding scratches with a rotary buffer
3 - Buff with an orbital and a blue coarse Rupes pad
4 - Wax, or strip and seal with a ceramic

Don't mess with success right!?

Perfect summary.

For some, they may opt to seal with a wax or sealant, personal preference.

STEP 1 - Wet sand. I will be doing this by hand I think, as painful as this may be I just feel I can control the process and that the results with 2000 grit might not be as aggressive done by hand as they could be by machine (I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG ON THAT)

Machine sanding with a sanding disc like the Mirka Abralon #2000 would be easier on you and leave a more uniform sanding mark pattern that would then be a lot easier to buff out.

No matter how good you are at hand sanding, you'll tend to leave TRACERS behind. Tracers are deeper, straight line scratches from either larger abrasive grains on the sandpaper or from any abrasive grain that becomes dislodged from the paper and then pushed over and against the surface inflicting a DEEPER random scratch as compared to the thousands of uniform scratches from the rest of the sheet of paper.

Trying to buff out tracers will drive you up the wall.

I use, and I show in my classes the Nikken brand of FINISHING papers, not SANDING papers as they use Unigrit Technology. Meguiar's use to have the marketing rights for these papers for all of North America but something happened? Now Griot's offers them under their brand.

Griots Garage BOSS Finishing Papers- Reduce Orange Peel - Review by Mike Phillips






I couldn't quickly and easily find a picture showing all the grit levels for Nikken in the Meguiar's brand but they do offer all grit levels. This picture is from when I taught a class in England.


Competition Ready Roadshow Detailing Class in London! - Products, Pads & Tools for the class!


Hand sanding techniques using Meguiar's Nikken Finishing Papers!


Hand sanding techniques are important skills you can use for a lifetime when the need arises like leveling orange peel and removing other surface texture issues in the paint. For this class I sent over a box that includes,

#2000
#2500
#3000
Meguiar's E7200 Sanding Backing Pads

Brilliant! Clear, easy, tangible! I hope this is the case everywhere across my boat, however I think I might drill a small and shallow test hole in the area near the gas filler cap, this area shows some darker patches though the gel which might be the resin below. I had to push the black levels in Photoshop to make it more visible however it is still hard to see in the picture. This is a 100% crop which also show some crazing in the same area. I have some factory gel so its easy to patch a small hole. That's a gel issue not a polishing question mind you!

Here's the full size version of your picture,




And "yes" that looks like you're running out of the white gel-coat layer and hitting the darker normal polyester resin and glass behind the gel-coat.

Re wood sanders, YES THAT IS MY BOSCH! I guess I should not have judged free spinning polishers by my experience with a sander!

The majority or wood sanders may "look" like a tool that could do what an orbital paint polisher will do but they simply will not rotate and oscillate a foam pad. They were designed to rotate and oscillate a THIN sanding disc.

STEP 2 - The Rotary buffer. After reproaching a step that I hoped to avoid, I realize that my first attempt at this was using a Makita spinning a 10 inch pad hemorrhaging compound in all directions. I wonder if I would have had better luck using a smaller pad? What size wool pad do you start your beginners on? Would you use the Menzerna HC400 for this stage too?

Yes and yes.

Try to find a 6" or 7" pad. I really like the new RUPES wool pads. I showcased them in my last boat class. They were introduced at SEMA in 2019


Pictures: 2020 Boat Detailing Class - SOLD OUT!

The new RUPES Wool Cutting Pads - Nice pads!

Step 3 - Sounds like the course blue Rupes pad is proven, don't mess with it. Now I have to choose a buffing tool to spin it! I can purchase the Flex 3401 for $716, and the Makita PO500c for $389. This question really comes from my wife (and I don't wish to become divorced either), and she asked; "You don't do this every day Dan, do you really need the more expensive tool? Will the Makita get the job done?". Normally I wouldn't even question spending the extra money, but someone ate a bat and now the world has turned upside down and I have to make a business case for most of my current spending.

Have you tried the Makita with the Rupes pad on any of your boat projects? Will it work or should I bite the bullet and get the FLEX even though I may have to sleep in my new boat for a couple of nights??

I have not tried the Makita PO5000C with the RUPES blue pads to remove holograms out of gel-coat. If I had more time, I have a chunk of boat in the garage and I could test.

My guess is it will work. It will be slower, but it should work. You'll want to put the pedal to the metal as the saying goes. Speed will be your friend.

As far as compounds go, I can get the full range of the Menzerna grits, but I can also get the Rupes Zephir Coarse that you demonstrate in your post on the topic. In lieu of being able to get any Marine 31 products, could you recommend one over the other on gelcoat?

Both Menzerna and RUPES make great abrasive technology and while I have not used RUPES a lot on gel-coat, my guess is it would work. I'm a HUGE fan of the Zephyr Gloss Compound. A lot of guys complain it's dusty. Me? I don't care about dust, duh... I'm going to wipe the surface no matter what.

I have used both compounds like compound/polishes and turned out flawless show car finishes in one-step on car paint. Now that's great abrasive technology.

STEP 4 - Might leave that for another day, however is a forced rotation DA suitable for spreading wax and does one run the risk of dulling the Gelcoat with soft foam pads as was mentioned in other posts (albeit with a cutting compound, no mention of wax)?

You bet. I use the BEAST and the Supa BEAST and the CBEAST to machine apply everything. They also work great to machine sand gel-coat and aluminum. Too aggressive for thin paints thought.

My replay to Aaryn went away.. I think I closed the webpage before I hit send! DOH! I live in Auckland and he lives in Blenheim if his signature is correct. Unfortunately that is 475 miles and a 3 hour ferry crossing away from where I am! Great idea though, and it is amazing how we kiwis find each other on forums like this among thousands of users!

Yeah, that's a journey all right. If you get stuck though, think of it as an adventure. Aaryn is a great resource, you would be glad you made the journey.

Thank you for this amazing resource, and THANK YOU SO MUCH for the time you take to answer questions that must seem to get flogged I am sure!
I look forward to resuming flights to America and I hope you ship products to hotels as I will not forget this help when the time rolls around to do all this again!

Regards,
Dan

No problemo Dan.

This forum is an extension of Autogeek's Customer Care. The difference between calling 1-800 phone number and posting your questions to this forum I - as you can see - I can share links, videos and pictures that you simply cannot do over a phone line.

Also - this conversation will endure forever for hundreds and even thousands to read and benefit from. You can't say that about a phone call or an e-mail.