Coatings and Hydrophobicity: Long term

[jrs1418]

I'm curious to know if any of you coating guruz notice that the super hydrophobic nature of coatings dont seem to last long?

I keep seeing all these vids on IG, AG, FB, etc showing the typical water hose without a nozzle, flowing water onto a freshly coated and cured surface, and the water running away like crazy. But from all the coatings I've tried, I notice that that "Super-Hydrophobic" effect seems to wear off slightly within a few weeks or months.

They all seem to start off shedding water like crazy, and then at some point wear off, just about to the point of a regular wax or sealant, and stay that way for the life of the coating.

I'm not talking about protection here, just the severe water allergy. I've tried OC Pro, OC, Cerami-pro, Igreenlover, Tevo S36, and another Beta Test coating from a manufacturer starting to get into the game. All these were applied to different areas of my car, but mostly my hood so I can watch the rain roll off while I drive.

Am I just crazy?

I recently applied Tevo Glass guard and was completely blown away by how the water just flew off my glass while driving in comparison to Rainx and Opti-Glass. Water beads were rolling upwards by the time I got to 30mph. Now, 3 months later they still roll at 30, but nowhere near as furiously as before, and a lot more leftover droplets hanging on, especially smaller ones. The product is most definitely still there. I remember just a few days after I applied the coating, i went outside after a rain and my glass had virtually no water on it, but the rest of my car did. Now, not so much.

Input?

[Scott@IncrediblyDetailed]

Any dirt or contamination that is on the surface is going to effect hydrophobic properties because the surface has been changed. Products are going to breakdown over time.

I'm 6+ months in on having Opti-Coat Pro+ on my truck that lives outside and it still beads like day one. I do maintain it with ONR and Opti-Seal while drying. During a moderate or heavy rain bird poop just rinses from the surface and doesn't leave any etching behind when left on the surface for days or weeks. I might wash the truck once a month.

If you think it's wearing off in wash, light clay and dry. See where things are. You can also apply a coating booster if you want to add something back to the surface to get those characteristics back. The problem is there are so many variables involved but I would imagine that a product with a life span will preform better at the start than the end.

[zmcgovern45]

I'll copy & paste a response I posted a while back in another thread that was discussing diminishing beading properties with coatings and the incorrect association with "lack of protection" because of "lack of beading"... some of the comment does not apply to this particular question, so don't take offense to anything that may be implied as it was again copied and pasted from another conversation.

Just going to chime in here briefly as this response can cause chaos depending on the readers, but here goes......

The idea that beading = protection is something that has become engrained in most people's minds. The reality of the matter is that beading is simply a result of high surface tension which causes water to bead and sheet away from the surface. There are many, many products that will lower surface tension due to included surfactants in the product. To quote an online source, "Surfactants are compounds that lower the surface tension between two liquids or between a liquid and a solid. Surfactants may act as detergents, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foaming agents, and dispersants."

Products like shampoos, all purpose cleaners, Eraser, etc. contain surfactants, and can effect the hydrophobic properties of the surface they are being used on... or perhaps even stop beading on the surface all together. The easiest thing for most people to do at this point is to just assume the protection is gone and to add a new layer of wax or sealant. The reality is that there is no way to tell that the layer of protection is actually gone, but since people have associated beading/sheeting with protection, they just assume it is gone when the beading stops.



Coatings are unique in that they contain specific compounds (like SiO2 or SiC) that bond to each other at an atomic level. The particles create covalent bonds which in turn leads to a solid crystallized layer that is very strongly bonded to itself as well as the substrate.

To quote a bit of research regarding covalent bonding specifically in Silicon Dioxide (silica)... "These are giant molecular lattice structures. This implies that strong covalent bonding holds their atoms together in a highly regular extended network. The bonding between the atoms goes on and on in three dimensions. Melting requires the separation of the species comprising the soild state, and boiling the separation of the species comprising the liquid state. Because of the large amount of energy needed to break huge numbers of covalent bonds, all giant covalent network structures have high melting points and boiling points and are insoluble in water."

These covalent bonds do not simply break down over time without help, energy is required to destroy them. They are, for lack of a better term, permanent (yes, I said the trigger word... don't get frazzled, stay with me for a little while longer). For this reason, I'd go as far as to say that if you place a coated vehicle in a museum and never touched again, the coating would be in tact forever.

In most practical applications, I would assume that it is safe to say that coatings must be abraded to be completely removed. If I had to guess, the reason most brands have shied away from the word permanent is that through normal use, your vehicle will be subjected to a variety of harsh chemicals and grime that will definitely have an effect on the coating - more specifically the hydrophobic properties of the coating, and as we talked about above, most people will assume the coating has "failed" once these surface properties have been disrupted. Also, most vehicles will greatly benefit from a polishing process every couple of years as surface defects are inflicted, therefore the coating would be removed or degraded from polishing.

So - to summarize, all of this is my own personal opinion. I am not a chemist, but I believe beading/sheeting is not a true indication that a coating is no longer present. The chemistry behind how coatings work is far more advanced, and while the surface tension may have been altered over time and therefore beading/sheeting suffers, the layer of protection may very well still be in tact. This is why there are so many great coating topper choices to quickly and easily boost the surface tension and slickness of any coating.

I've had 22ple VX Pro on the majority of my personal car for 2.5 years now, and although the beading had diminished a while ago (thanks to the harsh winters no doubt), when I test other sealants or waxes on top of it, it is incredibly clear that the bare coating (or VS1 topped area) remains MUCH cleaner throughout a week of driving. So, even though the coating doesn't bead as well as day 1 the benefits of the coating are still present (along with the awesome gloss). I will also add that I did miss one high spot during initial installation and it has not faded at all over 2.5 years indicating the very strong bond is still visibly in tact.

Hope that was informative and doesn't just create an argument.

-Zach

Long story short - coatings will most likely loose some of their hydrophobic effect over time, but it is largely dependent on how they are maintained and what environment they are kept in (same story with waxes and sealants). It is my opinion that if you want to have great protection and maintain excellent beading/sheeting, you need to apply a topper such as a dedicated spray sealant (ie Reload, 22ple VS1, GTechniq C2V3, OptiSeal, etc) or simply a quick detailer with an abundance of hydrophobic polymerslike Sonax Brilliant Shine, Menzeran Endless Shine or Meguiar's D156.

Here's a video of a daily driven vehicle that was coated almost exactly 1 year before I took these videos. The vehicle is washed regularly and quick detailer is used from time to time.





-Zach

[parttimer]

I noticed something this past week when I washed my 300. I had coated it with Kamikaze ISM and Miyabe. The car sits out some days, others its garaged and sits outside in a parking lot at work. I coated it at the end of August, start of September. It was filthy last week, its a black car and had a layer of dirt/dust on it. When I hosed the car down, it would not stay wet, the water ran right off the car. So far, I am extremely happy with this coating system, after wash, it looks like it was just coated. Even dirty the water runs right off it, which of course does stink so I may need to foam it first from now on!

[SYMAWD]

My car has had Cquartz on it for about 15 months and it still acts like it did when I put it on.

[FUNX650]

From my understanding; and in a nutshell...
It's basically:

•Thermodynamic Entropy
(per: The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics")

•We live in a "closed-system" (The Universe)
-Molecules have energy;
-Activation of energy;
-Energy dispersal...


Bob

[Paul A.]

Thank you, Zack, for a superb and scientific explanation of these new coating compounds. I think i remember your original post however this today was a good "refresher" on the longer term characteristics.

The op's original question is based on something i have said for years regarding "the life of an LSP". We need something...anything...to indicate to us when our LSP's are thinning, losing effectivenss or are just plain gone. Beading still remains as one of the best indicators...we can see it (or lack of it) to give us something tangible. At least a visual indication that water behaves differently when the LSP is first applied and is a baseline of "FULL" on the LSP meter. When we get to a point of no beads we assume the LSP meter is "EMPTY" (or close). I can't measure the depth of an LSP to quantify whether i need to reapply more. I wish i could invent an LSP Thickness Gauge!

However, with a scientific explanation of a 3D lattice network of bonds, it is easier to understand that it is still there...theoretically...and thus why so many say "don't use beading as an indication".

It's just visually disappointing to see the beading level fall off but be assured the coating is still there and working. My approach for about the last 2-3 years has been insuring the paint is perfectly cleaned and free of any bonding inhibitants AND maintaining it appropriately for its long engineered life. I want my sealants and coatings to have the best chance for longevity. And yes, as Bob said, it will give up the ghost eventually.

Basically i want the energy entropy as Bob mentioned to last as long as it can given my car's paint conditions. And seeing what UV does to polymers (plastics) down here in the solarium of FL it is indicative of the environmental assault everything gets that is exposed to it.

[jrs1418]

Thanks for the replies guys. I mean, the stuff still beads really nice. And i know it the product is still there as when I wash it, i can still see remnants of "high spots" in how the water lays when you wipe it semi-damp.

Its just that initial furious "super hydrophobic" effect of water just falling off, like we see in all these videos used to show how "cool" this new coating is, doesn't seem to last in real world driving, And I know that any dirt particles may affect this. It just kinda bothers me I guess when I see the videos because I know that they're showing a freshly coated car, and are usually mentioning something like "No more wax for 36 months guarunteed". I'm just to the point where I feel it's gimmicky.

No only that, but in the real world, rain and the water that mists up from driving behind someone doesn't act like hose water being flowed softly onto the surface. Its comes in a mist or in droplets and seems to just stick because it's so fine, and of course, dirt particles are depositied when this happens.

[SYMAWD]

Thanks for the replies guys. I mean, the stuff still beads really nice. And i know it the product is still there as when I wash it, i can still see remnants of "high spots" in how the water lays when you wipe it semi-damp.

Its just that initial furious "super hydrophobic" effect of water just falling off, like we see in all these videos used to show how "cool" this new coating is, doesn't seem to last in real world driving, And I know that any dirt particles may affect this. It just kinda bothers me I guess when I see the videos because I know that they're showing a freshly coated car, and are usually mentioning something like "No more wax for 36 months guarunteed". I'm just to the point where I feel it's gimmicky.

No only that, but in the real world, rain and the water that mists up from driving behind someone doesn't act like hose water being flowed softly onto the surface. Its comes in a mist or in droplets and seems to just stick because it's so fine, and of course, dirt particles are depositied when this happens.

If it rains and then I go for a drive when it stops, my car will be 90% dry in about a minute of driving.

If you just applied a coating and misted water onto it, it wouldn't run away just like the mist you get when driving in the rain. Ever notice how when it's raining harder (bigger rain drops) the water rolls off the surface much more easily?

[jrs1418]

Yes, I've noticed. And my car is the same way, If i go spin around the block, most of the water is gone. But only my hood paint is coated (Igreenlover), my roof is carbon fiber wrapped and coated with Tevo Plusguard, my glass hass Tevo Glass guard, My trunk lid has just a wax, and my spoiler has a section of OC Pro on it surrounded by just wax.

I get to see them all bead water, almost very similarly. Even the waxed sections behave very similarly to the coated sections. Tight beads, but unless i'm doing 40+ they don't roll off super easy.

I'd say:
My Hood (Igreenlover about 6 months old) will shed 80-90% of its water while driving speeds up to 40mph

My Glass (tevo glassguard 3 months old) will shed 90 of its water while driving speeds up to 40mph

My Hood wrapped in Carbon fiber vinyl (Tevo plus guard coated 2 weeks old) will shed 95-100% of water up to 40mph

My trunk lid (Klasses HGSG about 3 months) will shed 80-90% of water up to 40mph

But I'm talking about big water beads here. Like my car was sitting out in the rain versus water coming from driving in the rain getting misted on by cars in front. When I'm driving, that misted water doesn't roll off furiously.. it kinda just lingers off and leaves small water bead trails.