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  1. #21
    Senior Member 98CayenneTA's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsurfer View Post
    That scale are in mils. I like to use microns, wider scale.
    Same here, microns is imo a much better measurement for paint thickness.



    TrustJesus, here is a example of a paint gauge telling me a lot about this rear quarter on a G body.











    Ripping through your mind like a hurricane full of novocaine

  2. #22
    Senior Member TrustJesus's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Thanks 98 Cayenne,

    This is good info that helps me.

    And to the OP just be careful next time and donít be afraid to point out stuff before you do any work.




    Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline
    My goal in life is to love God, family and myself. To love others and treat others right.

  3. #23
    Senior Member FUNX650's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustJesus View Post
    This is good info that helps me.

    And to the OP just be careful next time
    and donít be afraid to point out stuff before
    you do any work.
    IMO:
    These two Mike Phillips articles really come
    in handy during discussions such as this.

    The learned skill of turning detailing work down by Mike Phillips

    How and why to document pre-existing damage by Mike Phillips


    Bob
    "Be wary of the man who urges an action in which he himself incurs no risk."
    ~Joaquin de Setanti

  4. Likes Misterpaul liked this post
  5. #24
    Senior Member TrustJesus's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Thanks Bob, appreciate it


    Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline
    My goal in life is to love God, family and myself. To love others and treat others right.

  6. #25
    Senior Member TTQ B4U's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Lots of good information in this thread but I'll leave it that you should have a lawyer look over your documents and ensure the wording is good. I'll paraphrase not copy/paste but thankfully I've never really had to push anything to small claims court or even really get into much of a dispute over anything I've worked on. The only few instances have been resolved due in part to my T&C paperwork and inspections.

    The most important tip I can give is to take the time to INSPECT, Photograph and VIDEO the vehicle while you are there WITH THE CUSTOMER. I do so in a very casual way advising the customers with my cell camera rolling what I'm doing so they are heard acknowledging what I'm doing. This came after finding a dent on a $140k vehicle that the customer implied I caused. THANKFULLY his wife came forward to admit she did it and didn't think much of it. Lesson learned.

    In brief though I do have the customer initial and together we BOTH sign paperwork that covers and again, paraphrased:

    The fact that I will not accept any liability for any loss or damage to any personal property including the vehicle being serviced, any belongings contained inside of the vehicle while at the location of service being provided. It's up to them prior to leaving to remove any and all belongings. Most will leave things in the trunk, or glasses in the door, etc. but I cover myself just the same.

    I do state too that all vehicles are cleaned at the customers own risk and must be able to withstand normal cleaning processes. This includes failure to disclose at the time of drop off any conditional issues that involve any body or paint work, fabric, leather repairs or any and all repairs inside or out whether completed under their ownership or not. To me this is important as I once had a small section of black trim come off a vehicle where the owner failed to disclose and initialed my line-item that asks for paint work over trim, including plasti-dip, etc. aftermarket logo's, tape, etc. and he was okay with what happened. Had I known he plasti dipped that area, I wouldn't have polished over it like I did. Wasn't a big deal but then I had myself covered too.

    I also have them acknowledge that as the vehicle owner understand that dirt can hide a lot of small concerns, thus once they leave I will also be doing a 2nd Inspection after the initial cleaning as often dings, scratches paint chips and fine lines/finish and body work damages are revealed once the vehicles surface is cleaned. Again, during my VIDEO I work it in with a bit of a laugh that I often will find door dings, etc. they didn't know about because I'm up-close and intimate with every panel when working and likely seeing things hidden by dirt and often overlooked by them on a daily basis. Their most often reply is "I bet you do" and many times I get them on video saying and "I wouldn't be surprised if you do"

    Itís also not uncommon to find interior components that are broken, scratched, worn out, faded, don't work or become loose and cracked without the owner's knowledge. I explain to them that in all cases I will make them aware, however our jointly signed agreement is signifying that they will not hold me responsible for any pre-existing damages present on your vehicle discovered while service is being completed or damage resulting from prior repairs made to the vehicle.

    This last point to me is a big one, especially on interiors. Even last night I detailed a vehicle where the owner was up-front they tried to clean the dried milk in a vehicle (stinky) and used peroxide. Ugh. OTC stuff is weak but it did slightly discolor the carpet under the floor mat and it was mainly seen with my lights on it vs out in the driveway. Nonetheless, it was there and it wasn't my doing. CYA is important. This was also something more noticeable AFTER I extracted the carpet as the peroxide weakened the dye thus the extractor likely did pull more color out due to their negligence.

    I've also found latches and switches that were broken, etc. so again, make sure you CYA in terms of your not being responsible for such things.

    Now in terms of paint, I do have them sign off on the fact that despite my experience level and care, clear coat / paint strike through can happen. These risks are greater when vehicle has had previous details completed, body and/or paint work completed. Bob here and others may disagree, but we are not perfect and I do have customer sign off on the fact that no, I will NOT be held responsible for any damage occurring in-part due to prior work on the vehicle. I document paint thickness, can easily spot if the vehicle has had paint or body work and since I document, and KEEP EVERY Intake form, I can prove in court that work I've done on similar vehicles and if what happens on theirs is consistent or not. Mazda's for example traditionally have very thin paint.

    What I mean by that is I did a detail on a 5yr old BMW where I could tell by the thickness that the car had been corrected and polished several times before. It wasn't to the point when I was doing the work that I wouldn't touch it but I advised the customer against a full correction and any compound work due to the fact that the care was not up to the levels that would sufficiently prevent strike through in some areas. They agreed and by signing off they acknowledged the risks of even my doing a one-step. Thankfully, no, I didn't and haven't ever burned through a customers paint but this is where it's important to have those conversations and get things in writing.

    Burning a leading edge on a door handle by being careless is one thing (I would absolutely own that) but burning through a fender that the customer didn't know or tell you about having had body work is another....although again, use professional judgement and measure every panel in 12" sections and DOCUMENT IT with them THERE in front of you. Yes, I do often have customer sign off on "thin paint" and I have paperwork where I write in my concerns and they still sign off on it. But I do so to Cover my butt.

    Once my initial inspections are done, we both sign off, I snap a photo of those documents and text them right then and there. This way there's no doubt about it. Once I'm done fully washing, decontaminating, etc. and ready to polish, I then complete my 2nd inspection form, sign it and do the same, text them photos of all discoveries and concerns along with the paperwork and most importantly, I REQUIRE acknowledgement and a text back PRIOR to doing the work.

    I had an $85k Audi come to me with paint runs and an apparent burn-through on a quarter panel and it wasn't anything I did, it was from the factory. The burn through area wasn't actually burn through either as it measured very thick, it was just during the application of the factory paint, it was clear the machines screwed it up but unfortunately the customer didn't see it upon taking delivery. Again, nothing I did nor was responsible for doing but I needed them to acknowledge and sign off on things so as to cover my butt.

    Sorry to go on so long but being my wife is a lawyer, this is a hot topic for me.

  7. #26
    Senior Member TTQ B4U's Avatar
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    Re: T&C (also known as terms and conditions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsurfer View Post
    On OEM paint that is in good condition I would say no less than 80 microns. Although OEM clear coat is thin..it takes a lot to remove a few microns.

    Measure your door jam or under the hood to get an estimate of your clear coat.
    ^^ this. I do so and write down the measurements in front of the customer to show them. I also do this so they know upon picking up the vehicle what was done too. Again, we're not in the business of shaving off 10-20 microns of paint with every correction but I have shown customers that for example, their roof on the Mazda came in at 75-80 microns (super thin) for a new vehicle but after my new-car polish and protect and coating that it still measures nearly the same, etc.

    Again, it's important to document and sometimes not just BEFORE but after too. I say this as I worked on a black minivan to reduce the appearance of a series of scratches and I wanted to show and educate the owner on paint thickness and the fact that they paid me $100 to "remove" a scratch but that my for-warning of my work being a "reduction in appearance" balances with keeping the integrity of what clear-coat they have. Painted measured in a 6.75mils going into the work and at 5.5 mils when finished and I wasn't willing to go any lower given the van was only one year old. We got 80-90% reduction in the marks and to me that was huge success and while the wife wanted more she at least paid me knowing why going further while perhaps would "look" better would actually prove to do more harm than good. Error on the side of caution for sure.

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