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  1. #251
    Super Member AutowerxDetailing's Avatar
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by BSoares View Post
    Yeah, I agree that pretty much no coating will require sanding. Orange pad and medium polish should be enough. I haven't done anything with pro coatings but I have a feeling they're not as hard as claimed and could be polished off too. Worst case scenario a compound on microfiber pad. Sanding? I doubt it.
    The only scenarios where a coating would need to be sanded off is if there are severely excessive high spots (think multiple layers applied and never leveled at all). Most properly applied and leveled ceramic coatings can be compounded or polished off. I mean we're talking a matter of a few microns of ceramic film build... You can remove 3um of material with a heavy cutting pad, M100, and 6-8 passes with whatever machine you want to use.
    Nicholas Scafidi - CQuartz Finest Authorized Installer
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  2. #252
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    Just a question... have you ever removed a coating? I read a lot of comments like these on the forum and I always wonder.

    I have had to remove a coating twice now, both time I had to sand. And I install McKee's 37 coatings, not even the high end Ceramic Pro or Optimum Opti-Coat Pro. So if McKee's 37 requires sanding, I would love to see someone try to remove Ceramic Pro with a compound.
    Interested to know... how did you determine you had to sand off the coating?

  3. #253
    Super Member Calendyr's Avatar
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by RZJZA80 View Post
    Is Ceramic Pro considered "high end"? Why doesn't any top level detailer out there that I know of use it?
    Ya, Ceramic Pro were the first one as far as I know to produce a ceramic coating for cars. When Optimum released Opti-Coat several years ago, they were comparing themselves to Ceramic Pro 9H.

    In order to install ceramic pro you need to become certified with them. I do not know how their training go so I can't comment on the installation process. I do know that their products are among the most expensive on the market and are supposed to be the most durable. I have never seen a side by side comparison between Ceramic Pro 9H, Opti-Coat Pro+ and Gtechniq Liquid Serum but all 3 should be very similar in durability.

    As far as why people you know don't use it. You should ask them. The reasons I would not use it are: 1) Price 2)Installation requirements (need to be heat cured and multiple layers are recommended). As a mobile detailler the one pro coating I would use is Optimum's. Gtechniq requires a shop to install so that is a no go. Optimum"s products are also very expensive.

  4. #254
    Super Member Calendyr's Avatar
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by itsgn View Post
    1500 grits sandpaper to remove a coating that's a few microns thick max? Why, for god's sake? Any cutting compound should get it off easily. And if not, using such a low grit sandpaper won't be any help either. If the abrasive (be it suspended in a compound or on a sandpaper) can't cut through a coating, then it's because the abrasive is not hard enough, not because it's not coarse enough. A lower grit sandpaper won't remove anything that a higher grit sandpaper made of the same material couldn't. The only thing it can do is remove the very same materials faster, but in turn leaving back deeper marks on the surface. Which in the case of a 1500 grits sandpaper could be around 10 microns for a single pass, which is multiple times the thickness of the coating. Meaning a 1500 grits sandpaper would not only remove the coating (in a single pass), but also a lot of the clear coat below it, obviously unnecessarily. And then I didn't even count the additional abrading needed to take out those 1500 grit scratch marks, which would remove even more clear coat, again, totally unnecessarily.
    All I can tell you is that from personnal experience, a compound like M105 on a microfiber cutting disk on a long throw DA was not able to remove McKee's 37 Paint Coating. I upgraded to 3000 grit Meguiars Unigrit and that too was unable to take it off. When I sanded with 1500 it removed it completelly in 1 pass.

    People say it's easy to remove with a compound. I wonder how they know the coating is gone. After sanding with 3000 grit, the paint should be dull. I have done it often enough to know what it looks like while there were a few spots that were duller than the rest after 4 passes, water was still beading like crazy on it. So it dented it but did not remove it. Sure if you spend a lot of time with 3K paper or compound, I am sure eventually it will come off. But who wants to do 16 passes of compounding?

    As for coarseness vs hardness, you may be right. All I can say is that 3000 did not work for me. Is it because the abrasives in 3000 grit paper are softer... it is very possible. Doesn't change the fact it was ineffective. Maybe an other brand would work better.

    The point I was trying to make by asking the question was: How do you know that compound is enough to remove it. There are very few reasons to remove a coating on a car. So I am guessing a lot of the people who make these claims have never even tried it. And to me misinformation is the worst thing you can do, even if you are trying to help.

    So if you tried to remove Cquarz with a compound and it worked great, maybe it's not the best product out there. McKee's is half the price and looks like it offers a heck of a lot more protection. When it comes to professional coatings, there should be no way you can remove them with a compound. Gtechniqs is very clear on the fact their pro coating will have to be sanded off if you apply it incorrectly. So I am assuming any pro coating would have similar restrictions.

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  6. #255
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    All I can tell you is that from personnal experience, a compound like M105 on a microfiber cutting disk on a long throw DA was not able to remove McKee's 37 Paint Coating. I upgraded to 3000 grit Meguiars Unigrit and that too was unable to take it off. When I sanded with 1500 it removed it completelly in 1 pass.

    People say it's easy to remove with a compound. I wonder how they know the coating is gone. After sanding with 3000 grit, the paint should be dull. I have done it often enough to know what it looks like while there were a few spots that were duller than the rest after 4 passes, water was still beading like crazy on it. So it dented it but did not remove it. Sure if you spend a lot of time with 3K paper or compound, I am sure eventually it will come off. But who wants to do 16 passes of compounding?

    As for coarseness vs hardness, you may be right. All I can say is that 3000 did not work for me. Is it because the abrasives in 3000 grit paper are softer... it is very possible. Doesn't change the fact it was ineffective. Maybe an other brand would work better.

    The point I was trying to make by asking the question was: How do you know that compound is enough to remove it. There are very few reasons to remove a coating on a car. So I am guessing a lot of the people who make these claims have never even tried it. And to me misinformation is the worst thing you can do, even if you are trying to help.

    So if you tried to remove Cquarz with a compound and it worked great, maybe it's not the best product out there. McKee's is half the price and looks like it offers a heck of a lot more protection. When it comes to professional coatings, there should be no way you can remove them with a compound. Gtechniqs is very clear on the fact their pro coating will have to be sanded off if you apply it incorrectly. So I am assuming any pro coating would have similar restrictions.
    What protection does Mc’Keys offer that CQ doesn’t? And how was the surplus measured?


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  7. #256
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    I'd like to know which brand has a measurable coating? Have yet to actually witness a brand that can be measured with a clear/paint gauge. If I can remove all my paint clear with a compound and burn through to the paint/primer, I would imagine any good coating would easily be removed as well. I have yet to witness a coating more durable than the clear itself. I guess I need to get my hands on Ceramic Pro?

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  9. #257
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    All I can tell you is that from personnal experience, a compound like M105 on a microfiber cutting disk on a long throw DA was not able to remove McKee's 37 Paint Coating. I upgraded to 3000 grit Meguiars Unigrit and that too was unable to take it off. When I sanded with 1500 it removed it completelly in 1 pass. People say it's easy to remove with a compound. I wonder how they know the coating is gone.
    Well, how did *you* know that it wasn't gone after M105, but was after wet sanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    After sanding with 3000 grit, the paint should be dull. I have done it often enough to know what it looks like while there were a few spots that were duller than the rest after 4 passes, water was still beading like crazy on it. So it dented it but did not remove it.
    Water beads only means the surface is hydrophobic, which can be for many reasons. Doesn't mean it (still) has a particular coating on it. Freshly finished or polished paint is also usually very hydrophobic (even though it might depend on the actual material used). Contact angle would be more a giveaway, because to reach the 100-110 degrees of a typical ceramic coating, you need the surface to have specific micro-structures, which you can't achieve by just polishing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    Sure if you spend a lot of time with 3K paper or compound, I am sure eventually it will come off.
    No, it should be really just a single pass in most cases, even with a compound. And given enough pressure and of course water (which will carry away the already abraded particles), even a 3K sandpaper can not only remove a few microns (which is needed to definitely remove any and all ceramic coatings), but actually burn through all the clear coat in less than a minute, even if used just by hand, let alone with a machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    All I can say is that 3000 did not work for me.
    Well, I'm not saying that it did or didn't work for you, because I obviously can't know, and you might be even right in that particular instance. Meaning it's very well possible that for whatever reason you couldn't remove a coating in X time with a particular compound - but really, that could have many reasons, which we can't verify either (like your pad being saturated, not using enough pressure, the compound having been deteriorated, etc). Anyway, generally speaking, wet sanding should be an overkill for removing a ceramic coating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    The point I was trying to make by asking the question was: How do you know that compound is enough to remove it.
    The most sureproof method would be checking the paint thickness. If it has decreased several microns, then obviously nothing of the coating could have been possibly left on the surface, because it's only 0.5-3 microns thick (and even that are manufacturer claims, which I wouldn't take for granted).

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendyr View Post
    So if you tried to remove Cquarz with a compound and it worked great, maybe it's not the best product out there. McKee's is half the price and looks like it offers a heck of a lot more protection. When it comes to professional coatings, there should be no way you can remove them with a compound. Gtechniqs is very clear on the fact their pro coating will have to be sanded off if you apply it incorrectly. So I am assuming any pro coating would have similar restrictions.
    As already explained above, generally there's no difference in this regard between using a sandpaper and using a cutting compound, because the only thing they definitely differ in are the carrier medium: paper in the case of the sandpaper, and oil, water or other solvents in the case of compounds/polishes. Of course there can be also differences in grit size (compounds and polishes tend to be at higher end of the scale, while sandpapers obviously on the lower), which in turn also affects the speed they're cutting at; and there can be also differences in hardness of the actual abrasive particles, which determines what kind of material they can cut down (ie. only materials that are less hard).

    But regardless of this, it's generally pointless to say that some coating can't be compounded off, but will need to be wet sanded, because "compound" and "sandpaper" only denote the carrier medium, which is not determining in whether that particular abrasive can cut down something or can't, and not denoting the cut speed either - which again, is correlated generally with grit size, and how and whether the abrasives are diminishing, but not whether they're glued onto a paper or submerged in a solvent.

    So, if a coating can be removed by a sandpaper of a particular hardness, then it can be also removed by a compound that's using abrasive particles with same or higher hardness. And the speed at which the material will be removed is also only dependent on the grit size and the diminishing properties of the particles, not the carrier substrate.

    The general rule of thumb should be here - as always - to use the least aggressive method that brings you the desired results in a desired time frame. However, considering that the coating's thickness is a few microns max, a cutting compound should be more than enough in "aggressivity" to remove the stuff in a timely fashion.

  10. #258
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    I can tell you from experience ceramic pro is no problem to remove. Have re done quite a few from clients who got the same ceramic pro experience. No sanding required!

  11. #259
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Feel like I was duped here with detailing and ceramic coating

    Quote Originally Posted by custmsprty View Post

    For the money your looking at, imho your best investment would be to come down here to Fla. and attend Mike's 3 day class and maintain your vehicles yourself in the future.

    PS $3500 is outrageous.

    Detailing Boot Camp link:

    Detailing Classes, Florida Detailing Classes, learn how to detail

    Thanks for the plug. Here's a first hand testimony from the recent September 3-day class.

    Pictures & Comments September 2018 3-Day Detailing Class at Autogeek with Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by 1957VwBeetle View Post
    Mike,

    Just wanted to take the time again to say thank you. I'm really glad I decided to take this class. Well worth the money spent. The amount of knowledge you presented us with was incredible. The car line up was great and it was a lot of fun working on each of them.

    If anyone is on the fence about taking this class do not hesitate. Mike goes over and beyond to make sure from the time you walk in, until the time you leave, that you are hands on all day. Learning on some of the coolest cars you can find. He puts a lot of preparations and detail into this class and it shows. So many different tools and products you get to use and familiarize yourself with. I would recommend this class to everyone who loves to details cars.

    Billy







    Quote Originally Posted by itsgn View Post

    1500 grits sandpaper to remove a coating that's a few microns thick max? Why, for god's sake? Any cutting compound should get it off easily. And if not, using such a low grit sandpaper won't be any help either. If the abrasive (be it suspended in a compound or on a sandpaper) can't cut through a coating, then it's because the abrasive is not hard enough, not because it's not coarse enough.

    A lower grit sandpaper won't remove anything that a higher grit sandpaper made of the same material couldn't. The only thing it can do is remove the very same materials faster, but in turn leaving back deeper marks on the surface. Which in the case of a 1500 grits sandpaper could be around 10 microns for a single pass, which is multiple times the thickness of the coating.

    I too question that some coatings can only be removed via sanding BUT - I've also learned to be open to new ideas and I've come across coatings that were a tick difficult to remove. So I'm going to be open to the idea at least for now.

    Worst Case Scenario
    I think a worst case scenario would be if someone were sloppy and simply applied too much coating and THEN also didn't do a good job "trying" to remove it.

    This would be fairly easy to test, simply get some of the coatings that people claim have to be sanded off then apply a thick layer, allow to cure and then see if it will compound off. If tested on black paint and the coating is only applied to a small area, say 2" or 3" squarish, then it would be easy enough to see where coating was and where coating wasn't. AT least I think?



    Quote Originally Posted by BSoares View Post

    Yeah, I agree that pretty much no coating will require sanding. Orange pad and medium polish should be enough.
    That's worked for me in the past, polish with a foam cutting pad but again - technology is always changing. I know I've been bitten in the butt by not having an open mind in the past. Thus the reason I call myself a

    Perpetual Student



    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas@Autowerx View Post

    The only scenarios where a coating would need to be sanded off is if there are severely excessive high spots (think multiple layers applied and never leveled at all).
    The above I'm inclined to agree with but the problem then is not of the coating but user error.




    Quote Originally Posted by MikeC78 View Post

    I'd like to know which brand has a measurable coating? Have yet to actually witness a brand that can be measured with a clear/paint gauge.
    Bobby here at work tried applying multiple layers of coating to "Control Test Panels" and he could not detect a measurable difference.


    QUOTE=Mike lambert;1605340]


    Interesting thread...

    Brings up a lot of issues around the marketing of ceramic paint coatings.



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