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  1. #1
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    PBMG and overlapping products....

    Wolfgang, Pinnacle and BLACKFIRE are ALL owned by PBMG. Each brand has a glass cleaner, carpet/upholstery cleaner, engine degreaser, compound, polish, sealant, microfiber cleaner, sealant, interior cleaner, tire dressing, paint prep spray, coating, rinseless wash..........you get my point. One may easily come to the conclusion that SOME of these products might be re-labeled. Every single product has a different chemistry? I mean, they are all owned by the same company. This really sways me away from a lot of PMBG products, unless there’s only 1 type of product for all of the brands. BLACKFIRE One Step for example, great product!


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  3. #2
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    I think that's painting things with too broad a brush. People have made the same criticisms of Meguiar's with their multiple overlapping lines (Mirror Glaze, Detailer, multiple consumer lines) and there are very few of those that are "the same". Blackfire is a fairly recent addition to the PBMG family, in comparison to Wolfgang and Pinnacle. I personally doubt that many, if any, of the products are identical between lines. I don't follow things as closely as I used to, but certainly there were clear differences between many of the products such as the polishes.

    Also you have to remember that Pinnacle was a shared brand between PBMA and CMA, and then they had their individual "German Sealant lines", Wolfgang and Blackfire. Of course later all three got lumped together in PBMG. As with any brand, there are some products that stand out more than others, nobody says you have to like every product from a brand. As you noted, there's some great products in there, I personally really like the Wolfgang exterior and interior trim sealants. IMO no reason to be put off because they own 3 brands that overlap...heck, the AG store sells dozens of brands that overlap.

  4. #3
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    I agree with Setec. I can also add that the polishes are similarly really good.

    The Blackfire, Wolfgang and PBL sealants are all awesome but very different (Wolfgang water based, Blackfire slightly solvent based and PBL resin based, all with different looks and longevity).

    The waxes all apply similarly pleasant, but are mostly different, although Fuzion and Midnight Sun May be similar. BlackIce, Souveran and Synergy are totally unique to anything else. Sig Series II is maybe similar to Mckees Trademark but not the same.

    For most the other products, I have only tried 1 from any of the given brands and they have all been very good.

    The spray waxes and QDs I have a gallon of each and they all differ in similar ways as the LSPs listed above, given they each use their own type of polymers to supplement those LSPs.

    Even if there is similarities in the other formulas between brands (I can’t confirm that’s the case), I wouldn’t shy away for that reason, because they all do their jobs well, so just pick one if you desire, maybe not a good reason to sample more than one brand in case of redundancy.

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  6. #4
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    Quote Originally Posted by acuRAS82 View Post
    Even if there is similarities in the other formulas between brands (I can’t confirm that’s the case), I wouldn’t shy away for that reason, because they all do their jobs well, so just pick one if you desire, maybe not a good reason to sample more than one brand in case of redundancy.
    It's hard to find a bad product these days.

  7. #5
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    If one comes out with a glass cleaner, engine degreaser, carpet cleaner......I mean, how different can they be? They're most likely being mixed at the same location.
    '03 Corvette Z06

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  9. #6
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    Agree with WRAPT. Sealants and polishes I believe could be different. Cleaners... not sure how much difference there could be.
    2006 LR3 White // 2014 Boxster Agate Gray // 2012 Sentra Aspen White
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  11. #7
    Super Member Eldorado2k's Avatar
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    I don’t think it’s basically the same products with just a different label among the 3 brands. Reason I say this is simply based on the fact [based on what they said, and I have no reason to doubt] that they recently gave the Blackfire brand a makeover and proudly boasted about alot of the products being new and improved versions.

    It would be wrong on so many levels for them to not follow through on that. It’d be lazy on their part, and insulting to their customers. If that were to actually be the case it wouldn’t take very long for honest opinions calling them out on such a cheap tactics to appear on this forum.

    While I do somewhat agree that there’s only so many ways you can make a great glass cleaner, I still don’t think they’d be bold or lazy or insulting to their knowledgeable customers to try and actually pull it.

  12. #8
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    Quote Originally Posted by WRAPT C5Z06 View Post
    If one comes out with a glass cleaner, engine degreaser, carpet cleaner......I mean, how different can they be? They're most likely being mixed at the same location.
    Using that logic, you could apply that to all the brands sold here and argue that how can each line have a cleaner, how different can they be, and most likely some of them are mixed at the same location. No one is asking you to try or like every brand in the store, no one is asking you to like or try every brand of PBMG's. Also, why didn't you pull M37 into this; that used to be a PBMG brand. I'm not arguing with your basic premise, of how different can two IPA-based glass cleaners be, but you could also stand in the supermarket cleaning products aisle and complain as to why there are so many brands of cleaning supplies, and they must overlap, and isn't the store brand likely made by one of the other brands, etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorado2k View Post
    While I do somewhat agree that there’s only so many ways you can make a great glass cleaner, I still don’t think they’d be bold or lazy or insulting to their knowledgeable customers to try and actually pull it.
    Just to play devil's advocate, how could you tell if they did that? You could put the same stuff in a different bottle, give it a different smell, give it a completely different sales blurb and some slightly different instructions, and voila, different product.

    ANYWAY--

    Mark, this whole thing just seems a cheap shot at PBMG, these kinds of arguments have been made about many companies, even one of the forum favorites years ago admitted when confronted that "there are only so many suppliers of base materials". You're an educated consumer and you have access to a whole forum full of member reviews to help you sort things out. Find something you like and use it often.

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  14. #9
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    Quote Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy View Post
    Using that logic, you could apply that to all the brands sold here and argue that how can each line have a cleaner, how different can they be, and most likely some of them are mixed at the same location. No one is asking you to try or like every brand in the store, no one is asking you to like or try every brand of PBMG's. Also, why didn't you pull M37 into this; that used to be a PBMG brand. I'm not arguing with your basic premise, of how different can two IPA-based glass cleaners be, but you could also stand in the supermarket cleaning products aisle and complain as to why there are so many brands of cleaning supplies, and they must overlap, and isn't the store brand likely made by one of the other brands, etc. etc.


    Mark, this whole thing just seems a cheap shot at PBMG
    Definitely not a cheap shot, it's how I really feel. I did not include McKee's 37, as they are their own company now. Of course there may be other companies that use the same mixing
    location or supplier, but most likely different recipes. My point is, it's very redundant for the *same* company to put out 3 glass cleaners, 3 engine degreasers, 3 APC's, 3 carpet cleaners. One may argue that Wolfgang, Pinnacle and Blackfire(currently) are different companies; nope, just different names. Some may not know PBMG owns all three lines. In that case, it shifts the whole perspective as "unique" products. They still may or may not be. It would not be logical for me to think all 3 PBMG carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same? Meguiars has a Detailer line X-press wax and a consumer line UQW. Different name, same product, but they do not claim they are different.
    '03 Corvette Z06

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  16. #10
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    Re: PBMG and overlapping products....

    Quote Originally Posted by WRAPT C5Z06 View Post
    It would not be logical for me to think all 3 PBMG carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same?
    It would also be logical to think that ALL carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

    I understand that it would be easy to assume that because the 3 brands you mention are all owned by PBMG they are "the same", but it would also be just as easy to conclude that they have made conscious choices to differentiate them, including sourcing them differently. Is the glass half empty, or is it half full?

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