Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

[Ronin47]

I have mini, dueto, 15mk2, 21mk2, Mille and Flex PE 14-2. Yeah i was surprised too since i had the exactly same reason to buy Mille. I will do more tests, it is good machine but 15-21mk2 are hard to beat.

I have samekind experience. Only combo that beats 15-21mk2 on my tests is rotary with a twisted woolpad. That is the most effective combo there is, but it also usually means 3-step process.

Where would you rate the Mille in cutting power compared to others in the Rupes range? More than Duetto and 15ES but less than 15MKII?

[RSW]

not trying to speak for RSW, but I believe he's hinting at the amount of heat that each machine puts into the panel using the same product and pad for the same amount of time as a measure of the 'work' being done or the amount of correction that each can do in a given period of time. This in response to claims that one or the other corrects faster.


I think it's important to delineate the term 'cover more ground' as it can be misleading. We should instead separate into 'footprint' and 'correcting speed'.

In the area of 'footprint' the large throw DAs, with pad size being equal, obviously win. This is because rotation has no real effect on the raw number of square inches the pad touches in a single orbit. A 6" pad orbiting 15 or 21mm will obviously cover more surface area than the same 6" pad covering a 5.5 or 8mm orbit.

The area of 'correcting speed' is what RSW is eluding to. Can you correct the same area of paint (Let's say the standard 2'x2' area) faster with a flex/makita/mille faster than a rupes or griots 15 or 21. If the forced machine can make up for its lack of orbital surface area coverage by correcting that same 2x2 in less time or passes than the 15 or 21, then it is 'faster'.

JCDetails,

Well said, so, adding:

When it comes to polishing, there are IMHO just a few variables.

The pad and product, a harder pad and more aggressive compound will cut faster but probably leave more marring. A harder pad will drive the abrasive into the paint harder and result in faster cut. If you're trying to remove deep defects, swapping out deep scratches for lighter scratches then removing the lighter scratches with a softer pad and lighter cutter or polish will take less time.

Then, there is movement between the pad and the paint and the kind of movement. More movement equals more work and will be expressed in both a faster cut and more heat. A rotary cuts fastest because it put the most movement between the pad and the paint and it moves in only one direction, so the abrasives tend to stay held in place and cut instead of breaking loose and doing nothing until they get caught again. This is why you can use a rotary with very soft foam or with long nap wool. The movement isn't mitigated by flex in the foam or the wool fibers moving back and forth without moving as much relative to the paint as they are on a random orbital machine - any of the machines with a free floating backing plate.

Then there is pressure. For my purposes here, I'm going to divide pressure into machine pressure and contact pressure. Machine pressure is the pressure you put on the machine against the paint. The contact pressure would be measured in lbs per square inch. Obviously, if you have a large contact patch the machine pressure can be high while the contact pressure is still acceptable. As the contact patch gets smaller, machine pressure has to be decreased to keep the contact pressure correct.

With a rotary, once you've determined what pad and polish you want, that variable is fairly consistent - it changes as you add more polish and as the polish gets used up or worn out until more polish is added but that change is relatively slower than what you can do with the other variables.

The contact patch will change as you move around the car. Wide open spaces will let you have a larger contact patch so you can apply more speed and machine pressure while maintaining a safe and effective contact pressure, but as you move into tighter areas or places where the whole pad just wont rest against the paint, both speed and machine pressure have to be changed to keep contact pressure and speed in a safe range.

If you were to watch me run a polisher on video you might be absolutely appalled by my technique because I look like I'm moving too fast and up on my edges too much, though if you looked closely you'd see the backing plate almost never gets bent. If you were looking at the result you'd see I'm cutting consistently because I'm controlling the contact pressure and speed to stay most effective without damaging. Video can't convey changes in pressure or show the contact patch perfectly enough to give an honest representation of what's happening.

So, that's it for the rotary. Now, onto the random orbitals. The first random orbitals had a small orbit. A small orbit means a small amount of movement between the pad and the paint. Small movement means less effect. Not much heat, not much cutting but a whole lot of safety. It's really hard to do damage with a small orbit random orbital. It's also hard to correct, like polishing out colorsanding scratches, with a small orbit random orbital.

This is pure opinion on my part. Read that last sentence again:

Random orbitals got popular not because they were particularly effective but because they are almost ridiculously safe. No one who wants to sell products wants to spend their days taking phone calls from people yelling at them because they burnt their paint. Add fillers, promote the random orbital, let the fillers dry out and the scratches come back, sell more product and smile all the way to the bank. Life is good.

That worked for awhile, but as people got more sophisticated they started thinking more about real correction. At that point, the orbit had to be increased to get more movement and abrasives and pads had to be developed that did real correction and the longer throw orbitals were/are a step in the right direction - then the orbit was increased even more to try and get an effective amount of movement between the pad and paint - but the basic design is still limited because the orbit can only be increased so much before the machine starts being hard to hold because the friction against the paint kicks a vibration back into the machine, no matter how well it's balanced and the sideways movement starts making it hard to get close to edges in an effective way.

This leads me to the forced rotation dual action machines. They incorporate forced spin and elliptical movement. Here again, remember, this is my opinion. There are two ways typically used to get forced rotation with elliptical movement. One, the way the Flex does it, is by interfacing the bell housing with the backing plate. This results in less movement between the pad and the paint than does the other method which is by using planetary gears and driving the backing plate in the same direction as the orbit. Makita, Bosch, Festool, and now Rupes - with the Mille are in this camp.

So, and again, this is only my opinion. The most effective tool for scratch removal in the rotary. With the right pad and product I can cut defects out quickly and importantly, because I'm wiping my product off with my machine while I'm working I can see the paint clearly and determine which scratches I think it's in my customer's best interest to let go. I can also see the areas where very little needs to be done and move on. Of course, I'm leaving a swirl mark but with modern pads and polishes, a swirl mark isn't a problem it takes much time to solve. In most cases, its both faster and safer to make the correction cut with a rotary then remove the swirls with a dual action - that is, again - a machine with forced rotation and elliptical movement. For me, that's the Makita PO5000 even though it spins backward. expletive deleted

Wow, this post is a lot longer than I thought it was going to be and wait, there's one more thing!

When it comes to speed, speed is your friend, the faster you can get things done right the more you can do for your client and the more value for money you can provide. Each step only needs to be good enough to get to the next step and make that step easy and effective. It's hard not overdo each and every thing because we all want to do the best job possible but wasting time is in no one's best interest.

RSW

[RSW]

Where would you rate the Mille in cutting power compared to others in the Rupes range? More than Duetto and 15ES but less than 15MKII?

Just looking at the specs, and having talked with people from Rupes, I'm sure the Mille will beat the rest of their line. If it went up to 800 or so RPMS it would for sure and, because it spins the same direction as a rotary it would kill the PO5000 Makita and obsolete the rest of the Rupes line except for the nano maybe. Honestly, I think the speed was determined by marketing.

RSW

[Joel1979]

I sold my Mille,its a good machine but i get better results with 15-21mk2 and i have a Rotary so its a bit pointless for me. Im bot.the only one here in Finland who have had similar results.

[RSW]

I sold my Mille,its a good machine but i get better results with 15-21mk2 and i have a Rotary so its a bit pointless for me. Im bot.the only one here in Finland who have had similar results.

Have you tried the PO5000?

RSW

[desidetailer]

Ok quick question guys, Mille or lhr 15 or 21 mk2?? Keeping in mind, I have a rotary and need one of these mainly for finishing or in some case for AIO

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Ok quick question guys, Mille or lhr 15 or 21 mk2?? Keeping in mind, I have a rotary and need one of these mainly for finishing or in some case for AIO

For finishing, MK II 15

[desidetailer]

For finishing, MK II 15

How about grabbing 21 and using 15 backing plate on it. As at times I can use these as well for correction rather than my rotary.

Sorry OP for thread hijacking.

[omalley34male]

The BP rotates clockwise, but the pad does not.


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backing pad clockwise and the pad not ... you just made Einstein, Newton and Bohr obsolete /smile