Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jcat9
not trying to speak for RSW, but I believe he's hinting at the amount of heat that each machine puts into the panel using the same product and pad for the same amount of time as a measure of the 'work' being done or the amount of correction that each can do in a given period of time. This in response to claims that one or the other corrects faster.
I think it's important to delineate the term 'cover more ground' as it can be misleading. We should instead separate into 'footprint' and 'correcting speed'.
In the area of 'footprint' the large throw DAs, with pad size being equal, obviously win. This is because rotation has no real effect on the raw number of square inches the pad touches in a single orbit. A 6" pad orbiting 15 or 21mm will obviously cover more surface area than the same 6" pad covering a 5.5 or 8mm orbit.
The area of 'correcting speed' is what RSW is eluding to. Can you correct the same area of paint (Let's say the standard 2'x2' area) faster with a flex/makita/mille faster than a rupes or griots 15 or 21. If the forced machine can make up for its lack of orbital surface area coverage by correcting that same 2x2 in less time or passes than the 15 or 21, then it is 'faster'.
I totally understand what you're saying as far as correcting speed, but what does heat have to do with correction speed?
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WRAPT C5Z06
I totally understand what you're saying as far as correcting speed, but what does heat have to do with correction speed?
doesn't, necessarily I guess. But you reminded me that i forgot to add one last statement to that post.
The more times the pad passes over the area, the more times it will abrade the paint. The more passes it makes abrading the paint, the more heat will be put into the panel.
I don't know of a good way to measure the amount of times a pad moves over the paint in a given square inch, so measuring the heat put into the panel is probably the next best thing. In theory, by doing RSWs test, same pad same product same time, different machine, a higher temperature reading for one machine over the other would seem to indicate more correcting 'work' done in a given time period. More 'work' done in a given time period means correction is faster, as the other machine would require more passes/time to reach the same amount of 'work' done on that area.
You could go crazy and try to figure out at what temp correction begins but there are so many variables, and limited gain from the information.
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
.
Just to chime in...
Great on-going discussion going on hear about all the benefits and drawbacks of free-spinning versus gear-driven tool.
The good news is now days we DO have so many choices.
It use to be this was all most of us had to choose from...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/galler...php?file=95323
Just as important - be respectful over other's and their opinions and experience. At the end of the day, what's most important is >you< like the tool you own. And >you< are able to take the cars you detail and make them shiny in a time-frame that suits your needs.
My dad has always bought Fords, I don't know why when it's obvious (at least to me), that Chevy's are far superior. I'm joking of course. But we never fight over which brand of truck is better and at the end of the day they both get us down the road. We also don't try to change each other's mind.
One thing I've learned in life is you can't change people they have to want to change on their own. Another way of saying this is you can't change people's minds... at least not by arguing.
So again, GREAT on-going discussion going on here and I'm excited to get my hands on both the new RUPES LH 19 and Mille KK 900E and then give them a test drive.
Carry on...
:)
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike Phillips
.
So again, GREAT on-going discussion going on here and I'm excited to get my hands on both the new RUPES LH 19 and Mille KK 900E and then give them a test drive.
Carry on...
:)
Mike, do you happen to have a comment on my pointed question from a couple pages ago? Basically at what point or under what circumstances should an individual pick a forced machine over a long throw orbital or vice versa?
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jcat9
Mike, do you happen to have a comment on my pointed question from a couple pages ago?
Basically at what point or under what circumstances should an individual pick a forced machine over a long throw orbital or vice versa?
The primary time in my opinion and experience to choose a gear-driven orbital is when you want to do your correction work as fast as humanly possible no matter what the size or shape of the body panel to be buffed.
The other consideration is when you want to rely on the tool to get the job done and not technique.
When it comes to rotary buffers which by default are gear-driven, then I think any professional that is anyone that detailes cars for money, (either full time or part time), should have access to a rotary buffer. There are simply some procedures where the rotary buffer is the right tool for the job. In order for a professional to take on the job they should have the right tool or turn the job down.
For example,
- Buffing out severely oxidized gel-coat boats.
- Removing sanding marks after wet sanding.
- Buffing out oxidized aluminum diamond plate.
- When defects are deep and speed is needed.
The above is just off the top of my head but probably the things I would choose a rotary buffer instead of ANY free spinning or gear-driven orbital.
Just my opinion for what it's worth...
:)
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
I have 2 x Flex 3401's with all the different backing plates, 2 X PE-14's too along with Rupes Duetto, 15ES, 15MKII,21 MKII,Boss 21,GG6,PC24 etc. I have purchased the Mille and LH19E Rotary but am still waiting as they on back order. I find Joel's comments interesting on the Mille correcting less than the 15 and 21 MKII as the only reason I purchased it was the marketing description stating it corrects faster. I can't comment on the Mille's performance as I am yet to receive and use mines.
What I can comment on is the 15 and 21 MKII correcting faster on both flat and curved panels compared to my 3401's. I have taped off sections on more cars than I know of or care to remember, using both the 3401's and MKII's and the Rupes certainly beat the 3401 in correction every single time. The key thing about the long throws is not the distance covered but the longer the throw the more the friction and slingshot effect across the paint resulting in faster levelling of paint and defects . The 3401 is great and a hoot to use but it is louder,runs hotter,vibrates more and is more tiresome after a detail. If I'm in a rush I grab the 21 MKII over the 15MKII too as its an absolute Beast in removing serious defects fast. I have also put my 21 MKII against my PE-14 and it slightly edged it too in correction but not by much.
All tools can get the job done but I have yet to own a tool that can get it done faster than the MKII's. Oh yeah, tired of lurking thought I would share my personal experience.
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronin47
Oh yeah, tired of lurking thought I would share my personal experience.
Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:
One of the things I do behind the scenes is approve pending accounts. Just a few moments ago I checked the queue and saw your account in there and a dozen more and pushed them all through. (except 2 spammers).
Love seeing lurkers become active members!
:)
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike Phillips
Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:
One of the things I do behind the scenes is approve pending accounts. Just a few moments ago I checked the queue and saw your account in there and a dozen more and pushed them all through. (except 2 spammers).
Love seeing lurkers become active members!
:)
Thank you, appreciate the fast, efficient response.
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronin47
I have 2 x Flex 3401's with all the different backing plates, 2 X PE-14's too along with Rupes Duetto, 15ES, 15MKII,21 MKII,Boss 21,GG6,PC24 etc. I have purchased the Mille and LH19E Rotary but am still waiting as they on back order. I find Joel's comments interesting on the Mille correcting less than the 15 and 21 MKII as the only reason I purchased it was the marketing description stating it corrects faster. I can't comment on the Mille's performance as I am yet to receive and use mines.
What I can comment on is the 15 and 21 MKII correcting faster on both flat and curved panels compared to my 3401's. I have taped off sections on more cars than I know of or care to remember, using both the 3401's and MKII's and the Rupes certainly beat the 3401 in correction every single time. The key thing about the long throws is not the distance covered but the longer the throw the more the friction and slingshot effect across the paint resulting in faster levelling of paint and defects . The 3401 is great and a hoot to use but it is louder,runs hotter,vibrates more and is more tiresome after a detail. If I'm in a rush I grab the 21 MKII over the 15MKII too as its an absolute Beast in removing serious defects fast. I have also put my 21 MKII against my PE-14 and it slightly edged it too in correction but not by much.
All tools can get the job done but I have yet to own a tool that can get it done faster than the MKII's. Oh yeah, tired of lurking thought I would share my personal experience.
I have mini, dueto, 15mk2, 21mk2, Mille and Flex PE 14-2. Yeah i was surprised too since i had the exactly same reason to buy Mille. I will do more tests, it is good machine but 15-21mk2 are hard to beat.
I have samekind experience. Only combo that beats 15-21mk2 on my tests is rotary with a twisted woolpad. That is the most effective combo there is, but it also usually means 3-step process.
Re: Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WRAPT C5Z06
Jason Rose of Rupes told me the Mille requires less technique and should correct faster than an MK II 21. He did say, in the right hands, the MK II 21 is a beast, but again, in the right hands. With the Mille/PO5000, the smaller forced throw can be very finicky with a lot of pads. The 3401 is more forgiving when it comes to pad selection.
I think this sums it up quite nicely.