Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

There really isn't a need to go into all these scientific tests, when you can put a tape line on a panel; one side, just allow the random orbital to oscillate across the panel. On the other side, allow the random orbital to oscillate and spin. I guarantee you the side that oscillated and spun would have much better correction. No need for the rocket science.


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[RSW]

If you put tape on a panel and then weight the machine instead of pushing down then time how long it would take to get the same result on each side, that would work. The idea is isolate the variable - in this case spin.

I myself am a big fan of science.

RSW

[VISITOR]

There really isn't a need to go into all these scientific tests, when you can put a tape line on a panel; one side, just allow the random orbital to oscillate across the panel. On the other side, allow the random orbital to oscillate and spin. I guarantee you the side that oscillated and spun would have much better correction. No need for the rocket science.


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^ i believe someone said the same thing (maybe it was mike) years back in regards to (OPM's on a DA) that. just use the machine(s) and judge the results is what is basically comes down too...

[Mike Phillips]

Great thread and lively discussion....


I've been detailing as long as the first modern orbital polisher (Porter Cable), was to be introduced to the car detailing world besides the Cyclo and the GEM back in the 1950s and the 1960s.

And "yes" I have an article on this that documents the history of this tool and how pretty much everything else is a copy of or evolution of this tool.


The Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...



On the topic of whether a free spinning orbital polisher, no matter what the brand, can remove swirls and scratches or more specifically, can remove paint by oscillation only, or in reality, vibrating or jiggling against the paint, here's my take, opinion and experience.


Even if a pad and a compound jiggling against a modern clearcoat could remove paint it would be so s-l-o-w and ineffective that it would be a waste of time.


I'm the guy that wrote the first how-to article on how to use the Porter Cable 7424 back in my Meguiar's days. I'm also the guy that stated in print that you MUST press down on the tool while maintaining pad rotating in order to remove below surface paint defects, i.e. remove paint.

Before I wrote this the common recommendation was to let the weight of the tool do the work. If you take a PC today and try to let the weight of the tool do the work you'll be standing by the car forever.


IF you want to remove below surface paint defects using a free spinning orbital polisher then the pad must do two things,

1. Rotate
2. Oscillate

That's my 2 cents. Feel free to agree or disagree but tell you what... I've never had someone show me how to remove defects with a pad only oscillating, which is only vibrating or jiggling against the paint.

I've seen guys say it works but I've never seen anyone prove it. And again... even if it did work it would be so slow and ineffectual that it would be for me... a waste time.

[Mike Phillips]

Anyone reading this thread will probably also be interested in this thread,


The history behind polishing paint with a DA Polisher

[ScottH]

Mike well said and couldn't agree more. The efficiency of polishing with the new Makita in feee spin mode in the root of my concern in this thread. My initial testing shows plenty of pad rotation on speed 5 (free spin) but I am not the type of guy to run my polisher full-bore for 6 hours, and more so there are many situations where that speed is not needed, not desired and not ideal as you of course know :-). I need/expect pad rotation on the lower speeds as well. I can live with some pad stall on speed 1 and 2 - but 3 and higher stalling should be the exception not the rule especially on flat surfaces.

In direct drive mode it would take an NFL player to stop rotation at any speed - so that I am not worried about.

I did hear back from Tony at Makita and he has seen the video I posted showing changing pad direction and pad stall at lower speeds. He is directing this to the attention of the Product Dev team lead who I also offered to work with about our concern. Will keep everyone in the loop.

ScottH

[JustJesus]

For those wondering why the pad is spinning one way at one speed, goes stationary at a higher speed, and then SWITCHES directions at an even higher speed....it's an optical illusion.

"The wagon-wheel effect" is an optical illusion in which a spoked wheel appears to rotate differently from its true rotation. The wheel can appear to rotate more slowly than the true rotation, it can appear stationary, or it can appear to rotate in the opposite direction from the true rotation. This last form of the effect is sometimes called the reverse rotation effect.

I've seen this effect on other wheel designs, not just those with spokes. It's more easily seen with spokes, though.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Per Jason Rose of Rupes -

"9mm or smaller orbit tools will require both movements for performance. But large orbit tools are less dependent on rotation....however best performance is always with both movements."

That's last sentence is the most telling thing Jason Rose said, and as Mike Phillips has said many times. Therefore, I want the most pad rotation I can get = most efficiency. There is no way that pad rotation makes little difference to oscillation with a random orbital.




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[DARK HORSE]

I want the most pad rotation I can get = most efficiency. There is no way that pad rotation makes little difference to oscillation with a random orbital.



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^^ And that's why I "usually" reach for a Flex 3401!

[ScottH]

For those wondering why the pad is spinning one way at one speed, goes stationary at a higher speed, and then SWITCHES directions at an even higher speed....it's an optical illusion.

"The wagon-wheel effect" is an optical illusion in which a spoked wheel appears to rotate differently from its true rotation. The wheel can appear to rotate more slowly than the true rotation, it can appear stationary, or it can appear to rotate in the opposite direction from the true rotation. This last form of the effect is sometimes called the reverse rotation effect.

I've seen this effect on other wheel designs, not just those with spokes. It's more easily seen with spokes, though.

I want to believe what you are saying, really - but have a look at the blue tape on this video I made. Isn't the rotational direction truly changing direction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhG8O1tnWcU


ScottH