Need HELP with Mercedes paint

[RPM_BR]

Indeed, the PC is a bit weak, I own one, which I only have been using lately for spreading wax and sealants.
I don't have a GG6, but people who work with it love it. I think it is a best choice.
You could start with the LC flat pads line, the orange is a very good cutting pad.
But, since you have a MB and a BMW, I would buy Menzerna. The FG 400 and the 4000. The 4000 is very versatile, you can use a harder pad and it works like a 2500 or a 3000 with a softer pad. The FG 400 is hours concours, it cuts and finishes like no other. Imho, of course.
But I'm a big Menzerna fan, so my opinions regarding it are a bit biased. I also have Optimum, carpro, meg's, sonax but I always come back to Menz.
But incase you want Meg's, the 101/205 combo is really good.
My two cents

[KenR]

Hello Altcircuit,

My wife and I owned a 2008 ML350 in Metallic Gold (until last August, when we traded it in for a 2015 X5). I am not a professional detailer, so I can only give my very NON-expert advice.

Yes, my Mercedes clearcoat was hard as a rock! I always tried to follow Mike Phillip's advice to use the least agressive products and methods, but I found that because of the hardness I needed to double down, so to speak.

I purchased the GG6 and Menzerna polishes and had good results with them. A good idea is to buy a bunch of different pads and a number of different polishes so that you can test out and dial down until you get the proper results. It sounds that you might be able to go with Menzerna 400 to get the results you need. I also had good success with the Liquid Souveran wax. It seemed to really make my gold paint sparkle.

All I can say is enjoy your car and enjoy bringing out it's shine. And follow the advice of Mike and the guys who do this for a living.

Regards,

Ken

[RPM_BR]

Hello Altcircuit,

Yes, my Mercedes clearcoat was hard as a rock! I always tried to follow Mike Phillip's advice to use the least agressive products and methods, but I found that because of the hardness I needed to double down, so to speak.

Ken

This is the reason of cutting with mf, as I said in my first entry in this topic, since we have to obey to the deadline agreed with the customer. Indeed, hard as a rock, hard to scratch and hard to remove it.
I tend to prefer cutting with mf instead of wool, in a case of hard paint, because I prefer dealing with hazyness afterwards (caused by mf, as the side effect of cutting) than dealing with swirls induced by wool. Mr. Phillips, our master, introduced me to the LC electrified wool, which I just received and I'm eager to test it. Will it cut it and leave it less swirls? Probably, but I have to see it myself, and see if I will adapt to it, and to see if it will taylor to my needs, to my personal style.
One other thing, if you want to start using microfiber pads, use finishing pads to cut it first, since they are less abrasive, until you feel more confident to move forward to mf cutting pad.
If I use a rotary, which is obviously more powerful than a DA, I still use mf finishing pads most of the time. It is safer.

[dlc95]

I wouldn't underestimate the Porter Cable. Choice of compound, technique, and pad seem to make the most difference.

For instance, using a rupes microfiber cutting disc dressed with Meguiar's m105, I have no problem eliminating 1000 grit sanding marks, on speed 4.5, using light to moderate pressure.

In that scenario, I had quality components, but the biggest variable was the technique.

I've also had great success with the green Hex Logic foam pad. This is my primary cutting pad, as in my experience it is more aggressive than the pads they designate as more aggressive than the green - yellow (heavy cut), and orange (medium cut). I suppose it's due to the rougher feel, larger pores, and open cell, reticulated foam formula. The distributor claims this pad was created to address Mercedes paints at the oem level - which is probably more marketing semantics, but I have burned paint with this pad, and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound on a Porter Cable. Also, because the pores are large, and can quickly over saturate I use way less product than I see many others using. My thought is that it helps allow the foam to assist in the abrasion process.

When I started polishing with a rotary, I was fearful of damaging the paint, yet had to teach myself because forums weren't around in those days... So I wanted to start with as light a touch as possible, while still correcting the paint. What I notice about myself, is that in light of my rotary experience, I've translated that to my d/a technique.

While this all is contrary to almost all of the tutorials I've come across, I stick with it because it works for me.

Regardless, there are many more talented guys on this board, these are just my experiences, and observations. Good luck with your endavor!

[RPM_BR]

I wouldn't underestimate the Porter Cable. Choice of compound, technique, and pad seem to make the most difference.

For instance, using a rupes microfiber cutting disc dressed with Meguiar's m105, I have no problem eliminating 1000 grit sanding marks, on speed 4.5, using light to moderate pressure.

In that scenario, I had quality components, but the biggest variable was the technique.

I've also had great success with the green Hex Logic foam pad. This is my primary cutting pad, as in my experience it is more aggressive than the pads they designate as more aggressive than the green - yellow (heavy cut), and orange (medium cut). I suppose it's due to the rougher feel, larger pores, and open cell, reticulated foam formula. The distributor claims this pad was created to address Mercedes paints at the oem level - which is probably more marketing semantics, but I have burned paint with this pad, and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound on a Porter Cable. Also, because the pores are large, and can quickly over saturate I use way less product than I see many others using. My thought is that it helps allow the foam to assist in the abrasion process.

When I started polishing with a rotary, I was fearful of damaging the paint, yet had to teach myself because forums weren't around in those days... So I wanted to start with as light a touch as possible, while still correcting the paint. What I notice about myself, is that in light of my rotary experience, I've translated that to my d/a technique.

While this all is contrary to almost all of the tutorials I've come across, I stick with it because it works for me.

Regardless, there are many more talented guys on this board, these are just my experiences, and observations. Good luck with your endavor!

Sir, I have some CG green hex logic pads from the early days of detailing, when I bought tons of stuff just to see what would fit my needs. Could you be so kindly and explain me better about your preference for it?
For instance, you use it on a rotary and on a DA?
What products do you use with it?
I like it when people doesn't go mainstream, like using LC flats and following everybody else's preferences and find personal solutions, since hex logic are not commonly referred here. I know it will be a bit off topic, but could you share a bit more your knowledge about it?
When I read UK forum sites, there are a lot of people who uses flexipads over there, which made me curious and willing to import some flexipads pads, because as you may be aware they have similar design, but the common thought is that hex structures mar the paint. So, I went LC all the way.
And, thanks to you, I will try to use more my PC, which became the ugly duck of my tools, after the advent of a Flex and Rupes. But the PC is so lightweight and small, it is a joy to use as far as manouverability goes, though it shakes a lot, but I always leave it behind and get my 3401 instead.
All the best, and thanks in advance. RPM

[Shortspark]

I know what you are saying about not wanting to pay a professional to detail your car. We all are here to learn and do it ourselves. It is fun and, as you say, no one can care for your own car like you do. So, you may not want to hear what I am about to say. There are times when a professional's help is necessary (or at least wise) and this may be one of those times. You have lived with the problem too long (did you say over a year?). There is nothing wrong, no matter how much you want to do it yourself, with getting professional help to finally resolve the paint situation. Then, after the problem is solved you can maintain the car yourself. Your cars tell me that money is not a problem for you so you may have to get over the notion that you don't want to pay for another detail and just get the right kind of help, at least this once. It is too good a car and paint to let it go further.

I own an ML350 in Diamond White so it is much easier to maintain than your blue, which btw, is rare and very beautiful, especially on an ML. Once your correction is completed by the best pro you can find, it will be a piece of cake to keep it in great shape from that point on. Simply put, there are times and situations where it is in the best interest for you and your car, to seek out the expertise of those that have the equipment and experience to get your new ride off on the right foot. In certain situations it just makes sense.

[dlc95]

Sir, I have some CG green hex logic pads from the early days of detailing, when I bought tons of stuff just to see what would fit my needs. Could you be so kindly and explain me better about your preference for it?
For instance, you use it on a rotary and on a DA?
What products do you use with it?
I like it when people doesn't go mainstream, like using LC flats and following everybody else's preferences and find personal solutions, since hex logic are not commonly referred here. I know it will be a bit off topic, but could you share a bit more your knowledge about it?
When I read UK forum sites, there are a lot of people who uses flexipads over there, which made me curious and willing to import some flexipads pads, because as you may be aware they have similar design, but the common thought is that hex structures mar the paint. So, I went LC all the way.
And, thanks to you, I will try to use more my PC, which became the ugly duck of my tools, after the advent of a Flex and Rupes. But the PC is so lightweight and small, it is a joy to use as far as manouverability goes, though it shakes a lot, but I always leave it behind and get my 3401 instead.
All the best, and thanks in advance. RPM

Absolutely.

First, I use the green Hex Logic on both the PC, and the Flex 3401. I've done testing with a Rupes Duetto, and will proceed with using them together once the weather allows me to get back to work.

I've used both Meguiar's Ultimate Compound, and M105. I've tested Menzerna FG 400 with the green and have no reason to believe I'll get less than my desired results.

I believe the flexipads version is different than the CG version. Buff and Shine actually manufactures the Hex Logic pads.

In the 5.5" da pad line up of both B&S, and HL, Two types of foam are utilized - "reticulated" (open cell), and "European prepolymer" closed cell). The Yellow, Orange, White, and Red fall under the prepolymer designation, and the Green, Blue, and Grey fall under the reticulated designation. Another interesting note is that the "heavy cut" yellow is softer, than the "medium cut" orange". The yellow behaves more like the white, but seems to have a bit rougher surface texture than both the orange and white, while the green (light cut / heavy polish) is the roughest of all.

Because I prefer to use a lighter touch, I chose the green Hex Logic because the open celled foam composition would in essence do some of the pressure work for me, by inducing it's own cut, thus reducing the amount of downward pressure I would need to introduce to the paint. Adam's actually discontinued this foam in their offering, because they deemed it "unsafe" for their users (then again, they advise to place enough pressure on the polisher until the back plate barely rotates, which may take the cutting to an extreme with that pad, the complete opposite of my approach.). Other aspects that I like about the larger pore pad is how it handles the residue, and how they run cooler. The variegated hex design takes the cooling effect even further.

A closed cell, or a firm open cell pad with smaller pores will have a smoother surface, and not induce so much cut of it's own. This allows the user to more determine the impact of cut via operator pressure. I actually really like the orange or yellow hex logic pads for "one step" polishing with a medium polish, because they leave a pretty nice finish.

I also find that "seasoning", or "priming" the green or blue pads works against them. They become over saturated and hyper lubricated, which will diminish the cutting efforts.

Actually, one only need to look at the Rupes system approach to see where I'm coming from. I didn't know what a Rupes was when I settled on my choices.

I plan on doing some demos of my pad choices this spring/summer, using a variety of compounds, on the PC, Duetto, and the 3401. If I have the Flex pe14, by then, I'll demo that as well.

[Mike Phillips]

I'd recommend getting the Wolfgang 4 and Flex 3401 and just start out on the right foot to start with.



The Wolfgang Four


Here are four products that will take care of about 99.9% of any exterior paint correction product you'll ever have in your garage.


The Wolfgang Four



Forum member RFulmer coined this term, (due credit where credit is due), and since there's been a lot of questions about what each product is, what they do, the order of aggressiveness and when you use one over the other, here's some info...





Uber Compound

• Aggressive Compound - More aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
• For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
• Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
• Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
• Cafe for all clear coat paints.
• Safe for all single stage paints.
• For some people on some cars it can be used as a compound/polish after which the paint can be sealed with a wax or synthetic paint sealant.

Total Swirl Remover

• Medium Cut Polish - Less aggressive than Uber Compound and more aggressive than Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
• For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
• Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
• Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
• Cafe for all clear coat paints.
• Safe for all single stage paints.
• Should be tested before using Uber Compound to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.

Finishing Glaze

• Fine Cut Polish - Much less aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and of course dramatically less aggressive than Wolfgang Uber Compound.
• For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
• Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
• Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
• Cafe for all clear coat paints.
• Safe for all single stage paints.
• Should be tested before using Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.
• Great "Maintenance Polish" for use removing shallow swirls that show up over time from normal wear-n-tear on daily drivers and after a person has already performed a multi-step procedure to remove serious paint defects.

Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0

• German engineered synthetic paint sealant.
• Non-cleaning, pure synthetic - Paint must be in excellent condition as in brand new or previously polished to like new condition before use.
• Can be applied by hand or any type of dual action polisher wit foam pads.
• This product "seals" the paint in the say way a car wax or paint coating will seal the paint. It is water insoluble and as such like all synthetic paint sealants, car waxes and paint coatings is not body shop safe.
• Requires 30 to 45 minutes of drying time before removal.
• Oxygen activated. After buffing off the excess sealant the remaining protection ingredients should be allowed to cure and fully set-up for an approximate 12 hour window of time before the vehicle is put back into service where it will be exposed to water.

Synergistic Chemical Compatibility
Each product is chemically compatible and chemically beneficial when used as a system approach to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone. Using the entire line in the correct order or just a few of the product in the correct order is an example of working forward in the paint polishing process.


All Inclusive System-Approach
This group of four products with just about any tool, any pad and even by hand will produce not only show car results but do it consistently across a VERY wide spectrum of paint systems including,

• Hard paints, soft paints and everything in-between.
• Factory OEM paints and aftermarket repaints at your local body shop or custom paint shop.
• Single stage and basecoat clearcoat.

Which products do you need?
Which product you'll need depend upon the condition of the paint on the car. Click to my list of paint condition categories and read through the descriptions for the different categories. Then after washing and drying your car, inspect the paint both with your sense of touch, (The Baggie Test), and visually with your eyes in bright light for swirls and scratches.

Then determine which category your car's paint fall into. Here are some general guidelines but the best way to determine which exact product you'll need to remove the defects and restore the finish on your car to your expectations can only be determined by doing a Test Spot


How To Do a Test Spot


Test Spot results showing the before and after difference...








On Autogeek.net

Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0

Total Swirl Remover

Finishing Glaze

Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0

[Mike Phillips]

Get the Flex 3401, the Lake Country Adapter Plate System and then get the orange, white and black Lake Country Hybrid Pads in 6.5" and 5" and you can tackle anything using this took, thees pads and the Wolfgang Four.

Also get a copy of my how-to book and read it from cover to cover before you even take the Flex out of the box.



How to use the Flex XC 3401 VRG Dual Action Polisher
For both Production Detailing & Show Car Detailing

[RPM_BR]

Absolutely.

First, I use the green Hex Logic on both the PC, and the Flex 3401. I've done testing with a Rupes Duetto, and will proceed with using them together once the weather allows me to get back to work.

I've used both Meguiar's Ultimate Compound, and M105. I've tested Menzerna FG 400 with the green and have no reason to believe I'll get less than my desired results.

I believe the flexipads version is different than the CG version. Buff and Shine actually manufactures the Hex Logic pads.

In the 5.5" da pad line up of both B&S, and HL, Two types of foam are utilized - "reticulated" (open cell), and "European prepolymer" closed cell). The Yellow, Orange, White, and Red fall under the prepolymer designation, and the Green, Blue, and Grey fall under the reticulated designation. Another interesting note is that the "heavy cut" yellow is softer, than the "medium cut" orange". The yellow behaves more like the white, but seems to have a bit rougher surface texture than both the orange and white, while the green (light cut / heavy polish) is the roughest of all.

Because I prefer to use a lighter touch, I chose the green Hex Logic because the open celled foam composition would in essence do some of the pressure work for me, by inducing it's own cut, thus reducing the amount of downward pressure I would need to introduce to the paint. Adam's actually discontinued this foam in their offering, because they deemed it "unsafe" for their users (then again, they advise to place enough pressure on the polisher until the back plate barely rotates, which may take the cutting to an extreme with that pad, the complete opposite of my approach.). Other aspects that I like about the larger pore pad is how it handles the residue, and how they run cooler. The variegated hex design takes the cooling effect even further.

A closed cell, or a firm open cell pad with smaller pores will have a smoother surface, and not induce so much cut of it's own. This allows the user to more determine the impact of cut via operator pressure. I actually really like the orange or yellow hex logic pads for "one step" polishing with a medium polish, because they leave a pretty nice finish.

I also find that "seasoning", or "priming" the green or blue pads works against them. They become over saturated and hyper lubricated, which will diminish the cutting efforts.

Actually, one only need to look at the Rupes system approach to see where I'm coming from. I didn't know what a Rupes was when I settled on my choices.

I plan on doing some demos of my pad choices this spring/summer, using a variety of compounds, on the PC, Duetto, and the 3401. If I have the Flex pe14, by then, I'll demo that as well.

Thanks a lot, Sir, for taking your time to share your knowledge. I will try it. By tbe way, I have a Flex pe14, amazing, quiet, light, powerful rotary. I'm glad I bought it instead of a Makita. I use mf finishing pads, FG400 and the pe14 for cutting hard paints. I prefer mf finishing pads for cutting, it leaves a nicer output. All the best. RPM