Dual Action Buff out of Orange Peel - Advice Request

[Mike Phillips]

Dual Action Buff out of Orange Peel - Advice Request


I get e-mails all the time from people with questions about detailing their cars. While I prefer people to join our forum, become part of our community and then post their questions to the forum I know not everyone in the world is going to do this so I always do my best to share the nutshell version of an answer I would invest the time and resources to type out if I were typing on the forum.

That's because you can do so much on the forum and so little in an e-mail and typing time is limited.

Hello Mike.

I have been a follower of your forum posts and I am an owner of your DVD's on detailing. I have a comparison question that I cannot find the answer to.

Background: I painted my Willys Jeep hood and front fender in a two stage metallic basecoat then clearcoat. My clearcoat has come out with a fine textured orange peel (likely due to using too small a gun nozzle - used 1.0mm should have used 1.4mm like the specs showed).

I could do three things now:

1) wet sand and respray clear coat - I have 3 good coats of clear so I dont need more , and I cannot guarentee I wont get orange peel back

2) wet sand 1500, 2000, 3000, rotary buff with wool pad/cutting products, followed with DA portercable polishing - problem is I don't have a variable speed rotary tool nor wool pad, so there's additional cost and I'm not an expert with rotary buffing, however I am a fast learner and have plenty of experience with handling grinders/polishers. I'm not too worried about trying this.

3) DA portercable with Procar Denim pad, then progressively less agressive polishes/pads - I have everything I need except the denim pads. This seems like the obvious choice, however would the result be similar to the wool pad on the rotary buffer?


So, in a nutshell, should I rotary buff with a wool pad or DA with a Denim pad? Thoughts?

Regards
...Wes

Hi Wes,

The Denim pads will be the safest route and as long as you're not in a hurry you can take your time and buff and buff and buff till you're happy.

The most effective and fastest route would be to wetsand and then use a wool pad on a rotary buffer with a quality compound to remove your sanding marks.

If it were mine, I would machine sand using a combination of 3" and 6" Trizact discs from 3M as well as some 3M Blue Vinyl Tape to protect any raised body lines or edges.

You can also hand sand but as I teach in my detailing boot camp classes in the wetsanding portion, the sanding marks left by hand sanding take longer to remove and you end up removing more paint and you often end up with tracers.

Just the opposite for machine sanding. The sanding marks buff out fast, less risk of heating up the clear coat, less chance of pigtails and you leave more paint on the car.

I only hand sand when I cannot machine sand.

The Griot's Garage 3" polisher makes a GREAT machine damp sander and the PC works great for the 6" discs.

With the Denim Pads it's really just a matter of working small sections and doing a lot of buffing but it's a lot safer as there's a lot less risk and you need a lot less skill and investment to do the job.


I'd also recommend joining our forum so you can interact on it. This forum is akin to any tool in your tool chest as that's what it is... a tool to help you get the results you're working for.


Click here to become a member of AutogeekOnline!

[dlc95]

I love having this forum as a resource.

Mike, I remember the video you posted using the denim pads on the PC. I picked up a couple to play with, based on that video.

[MarkD51]

OK Mike, here's a variety of questions, maybe you can help me and others...

I myself know of only one maker of such Denim Pads, Carpro.
But, some things I've noticed, even at Carpro's site, they list 3 different sized Pads for the more aggressive Compounding, but only one size "Velvet" Pad for polishing?

I've inquired to Carpro why this is a few days ago, but have gotten no reply. Understandable at this time of year, the Holidays are upon us, and us folks hopefully would be able to find some small R&R during this time.

Another question? Are there others out there who make such Denim Orange Peel Pads besides Carpro?

Me, I see such pads as a very valuable tool in the right hands. I know you often teach to "not work backwards".

My recent thoughts about working backwards, is, here comes a practically new 2014-2015 vehicle, let's say a Ford Focus, the finish is loaded with nasty orange peel. Reflections are virtually nil, the finish is looking fairly poor.

I'd assume I wouldn't want to start taking wet papers to finish, and just wipe out ten years of wear and tear to the clear coat, in effect turning a relatively new vehicle into a 10 year old thin finish by such aggressive means.

That I'm liking the idea of removing orange peel while also smoothing the finish adding gloss. In other words, I'm working "forward", killing two birds with one stone.

I'm of course aware that simple DA'ing, or Rotary Polishing does smooth the paint, levels the surface, things most likely will not look worse in the end with more simpler finishing tasks, but on the other hand, will not achieve the best finish that any applied paint system can achieve per given vehicle.

Please advise, thanks,
Mark

[allenk4]

The Velvet pads are somewhat conformable.

The Denim pads are thin and do not conform to contours at all. I used the 5.3" and 3" on my SUV


The DOI with the Denim pads is not as good as with wet sanding

It takes longer

The Denim pads are safer as the removal of CC is slower

We were using them on my truck down at Meguiar's TNOG and had a PTG and an infrared thermometer. They do heat up, but less than a foam pad on a rotary. They have some sort of magical quality that we saw, where the paint was being leveled, but the PTG would hardly budge. I can't remember what the total removes was, but it was way leas than anyone expected

The 1/8" 3M Vinyl Tape is an absolute must when using Denim pads

The Denim pads hated FG400, but loved M100

Expect short working times and lots of dust

[MarkD51]

The Velvet pads are somewhat conformable.

The Denim pads are thin and do not conform to contours at all. I used the 5.3" and 3" on my SUV


The DOI with the Denim pads is not as good as with wet sanding

It takes longer

The Denim pads are safer as the removal of CC is slower

We were using them on my truck down at Meguiar's TNOG and had a PTG and an infrared thermometer. They do heat up, but less than a foam pad on a rotary. They have some sort of magical quality that we saw, where the paint was being leveled, but the PTG would hardly budge. I can't remember what the total removes was, but it was way leas than anyone expected

The 1/8" 3M Vinyl Tape is an absolute must when using Denim pads

The Denim pads hated FG400, but loved M100

Expect short working times and lots of dust

Thank you for your observations and experiences.

May I ask why the particular use and selection of 1/8" 3M Vinyl Tape? I'm guessing taping is needed due to possible trim damage with these more aggressive Pads? Is it that the Vinyl Tape stays put better than other conventional Tapes?

[Mike Phillips]

OK Mike, here's a variety of questions, maybe you can help me and others...

I myself know of only one maker of such Denim Pads, CarPro.
But, some things I've noticed, even at Carpro's site, they list 3 different sized Pads for the more aggressive Compounding, but only one size "Velvet" Pad for polishing?

I've inquired to CarPro why this is a few days ago, but have gotten no reply. Understandable at this time of year, the Holidays are upon us, and us folks hopefully would be able to find some small R&R during this time.

My guess would be that the Denim pads simply work better for removing paint and more sizes enables "you" the end-user to match the pad size to the panel for which paint is being removed. You certainly don't want to do this type of work and be buffing on a raised body line or an edge.

I use the Rupes TA50 with 2" sanding discs and the Griot's 3" polisher with 3" sanding discs for thin panels, tight areas and spot repair to completely reduce risk to an absolute minimum plus the superb control you have over small tools versus large tools.

Same idea would apply to removing paint with denim pads and a compound and keep in mind, CarPro recommends these for use with rotary buffer. I'm the guy that stepped outside the box and used them with the Porter Cable.


How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher

Another question? Are there others out there who make such Denim Orange Peel Pads besides CarPro?

Off hand I'm not sure...

Me, I see such pads as a very valuable tool in the right hands. I know you often teach to "not work backwards".

My recent thoughts about working backwards, is, here comes a practically new 2014-2015 vehicle, let's say a Ford Focus, the finish is loaded with nasty orange peel. Reflections are virtually nil, the finish is looking fairly poor.

I'd assume I wouldn't want to start taking wet papers to finish, and just wipe out ten years of wear and tear to the clear coat, in effect turning a relatively new vehicle into a 10 year old thin finish by such aggressive means.

That's kind of my way of thinking... there's benefits and drawbacks to sanding factory clearcoats. Mostly drawbacks because the FACTORY doesn't give you anything to work with. And as I show in this thread, factory paint is thin...

Paint is thin


The one benefit is if you know what you're doing and have confidence that some caveman detailer hasn't already butchered the car in front of you, machine sanding, that is damp sanding, keeps the surface cool and removes defects while leaving behind a very uniform sanding mark pattern that also buffs out fast and easy and thus keeps temperatures low.

I taught this technique when Meguiar's first introduced their Unigrit discs at Mobil Tech back in 2010. This was the first class ever taught to the public on these discs and this technique of removing defects using high grit sanding discs instead of the normal heavy compounding.

Pictures from Mobile Tech Expo 2010


Of course now days we have Trizact #5000 discs and for anyone that has never used these before, after sanding with them you actually start restoring gloss and the sanding marks buff out super fast and easy.


Check out the section of paint on the far right, this was sanded with #5000

Video: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs!

See how that last section is actually REFLECTING images?

(I think this was the first article posted to a forum on #5000 and this was in 2012)

That I'm liking the idea of removing orange peel while also smoothing the finish adding gloss. In other words, I'm working "forward", killing two birds with one stone.

That is the optimum idea for a process....

I'm of course aware that simple DA'ing, or Rotary Polishing does smooth the paint, levels the surface, things most likely will not look worse in the end with more simpler finishing tasks, but on the other hand, will not achieve the best finish that any applied paint system can achieve per given vehicle.

Please advise, thanks,
Mark

I agree with the last paragraph.

The person that started this thread by sending me an e-mail is simply looking for the best method for him to remove orange peel.

For the most part, I don't answer e-mail questions via e-mail. Typing time is too limited to type for one set of eyeballs. If someone e-mails me or PM's me questions I ask them to take it to the forum or I take it to the forum.

After I answer the question I send the person the link and encourage them to "join the forum" as that's where I interact. I leave it up to them however. I've sent the Wes the link to this thread and I'm confident he's read it and may read it into the future.

Some people are forum people while others are not. The nature of a forum is for a thread to sometime take on legs of it's own. If a person doesn't check on it more than once they may miss out on some good info. I have not control over that.

Big picture is this...

What Wes wants to do is a fairly complicated process where if a mistake is made it takes you back to point zero.

I shared the safest method to try and also the fastest and most effective method to try...

For a person that does not have sanding experience, or rotary buffer experience, nor all the tools and supplies to do it correctly, then moving along slowly with denim pads is a safe and good option.

Me?

I would machine sand that paint and then cut it with a wool pad and rotary buffer just like I did to this old 2-door Chevy....



How to wet sand a car - Time Lapse Video


Back in March of this year, (2013), I did a complete wet sand, cut, polish and even machine waxed a 1964 Chevrolet Malibu and while doing this project, Yancy set the GoPro camera up to take a picture every minute.

It's been in queue for editing since then but I'm happy to announce it's now been edited and uploaded to our YouTube Channel.

How to wet sand a car

Here's the steps I followed...

Covered windshield using the Beach Towel Tip.

Covered interior and convertible top with Eco-friendly drop cloth.

Removed easy to access chrome emblems and script.

Wiped entire car down with Wurth Clean-Solve per what I wrote in post #5 here.

Taped-off all edges and raised body lines using 3M Blue Vinyl Tape. Tape-off video here.


Machine sanded all body panels using a 2-step system

First sanding step: I used 3M Trizact #3000 Grit Discs. I used 3" discs for thin panels and around edges and body lines. Used the 6" discs for the major flat sections of each panel.

Second sanding step: I used 3M Trizact #5000 Grit Discs. I used 3" discs for thin panels and around edges and body lines. Used the 6" discs for the major flat sections of each panel.


Removed all sanding marks.
For this I used the new Meguiar's M100 Pro Speed Compound with a LC Wool Cutting pad on the Flex PE14. At the time I did this project back in March of 2013 this compound had just been introduced to the market, so it was a new compound and I think this is the first car completely sanded and compounded and caught on video using M100 Pro Speed Compound. Speed on the Flex PE14 = 1000 RPM.



Removed any swirls left by the wool pad and the compounding step.
For this I used Meguiar's M205, the follow-up polish for M100 with a 6.5" Lake Country Flat Foam Polishing Pad on the Flex PE14. Speed on the Flex PE14 = 1000 RPM


Finish Polished to maximize gloss and ensure no holograms
After using the rotary buffer with the M205 I re-polished every square inch of paint using Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish with a 5.5" Lake Country Foam Flat Finishing Pad on the Porter Cable 7424XP on the 6.0 speed setting.


Machine Waxed
After wiping all the finishing polish off I machine applied Pinnacle Souveran Paste Wax using the Porter Cable 7424XP with a 5.5" Lake Country Foam Waxing Pad on the 4-5 speed setting.

Removed Wax
I removed the wax wearing microfiber gloves and using super soft rolled edge microfiber towels.



Comments....
I wanted to document not only the process but how long it would take me to do this type of project all by myself working non-stop. If you watch the video you'll see around the 4:47 time stamp that the car has now been turned around and is facing forward in the garage.

Here's what was going on...

While I did the actual work non-stop, as in once I started in the morning I did not stop till end of day, I did have to spread the work out over two days as I have too many other job duties to process outside of the garage.

The first day I sanded all the horizontal panels and the driver's side panels. The second day I turned the car around and only had to sand the passenger side.

In a number of places you'll see me standing while I either sand and buff or sitting on the floor while I sand and buff and the reason for this is we don't have a car lift in our garage and proper technique when sanding and buffing is to always be looking across from the paint you're working on. This is especially true when sanding and compounding. I always say,

If you can't bring the car up to you, (with a lift), then you have to lower yourself to the car"


The entire process from start to finish as I listed the steps above except for the initial wiping down of the car with a waterless wash and removing the chrome trim took me approximately,

12 Hours

I hustled the entire time. Only a few times did I stop to either take a water break, switch to different products or pads, or talk to someone that may have entered the garage.


I don't recommend ever trying to do this type of work in a hurry as you'll make mistakes so I didn't hurry but I did hustle. Time is valuable for all of us and I did this during business hours so another reason I had to hustle is because when working in the garage, other job responsibilities are on standby.


Besides this time-lapse video of completely sanding and buffing out an entire car, I think the first time this was ever caught on a GoPro camera using time lapse video was when a team of guys and myself did the full wet sand, cut and buff to a 1969 AMX in November of 2012 as documented in this thread,

Time Lapse Picture Capture of the 1969 AMX Nebraska Project



This was a fun project and I hope you enjoy the video.

[vuldub]

Well hello Mike. I did join your forum. Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I am active on many forums but new to yours. Sometimes I am reluctant to post on forums so as to avoid getting flamed or the mis-guided advice for overconfident newbies. Obviously that's not the case here. Since you took the time to reply, I will take the time to document my success with some photos. (I'm not planning on failure. Wink). I have ordered the Procar denim and velvet pads from a Canadian distributor and I am waiting on their arrival. I know you use Meguiars, however access to their products is lousy here in Canada so I use Poorboys compounds. My plan will be to buff with the velvet pad (approx 3000 grit equivalent) SSR3 (M105 equivalent) at 6000 speed, then buff with SSR2 on an orange pad at 5000 speed, then polish win SSR1 on a white pad. Buffer is a dual action portercable. I don't think the orange peel is bad enough to start with the demon pad (equiv to 2000 grit - depending on the compound I suppose).

What compound do you suggest for the denim and velvet pads?

Regards
...Wes

[Mike Phillips]

Well hello Mike. I did join your forum. Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome

And you're welcome.

I am active on many forums but new to yours. Sometimes I am reluctant to post on forums so as to avoid getting flamed or the mis-guided advice for overconfident newbies. Obviously that's not the case here.

I can and only will speak for myself but I think the way I am and feel is also shared by our regular core group of forum members.

I've been posting the forums since the software was invented and released and even before that as I can trace my posts back to 1994 on the Usenet Newsgroups in both rec.autos.misc and rec.autos.tech

One thing I personally like is when I join a forum is,

A: I am welcomed.

B: I get courteous and helpful replies.

Those are two very simple things but they can be hard to find on other forums. Knowing what I like about a forum, I practice the same thing on this forum. That is, welcome new members and do my best to help them with information that walks them step by step to their goal.

That is the end all, be all of a great forum. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of forum bullies hanging out together for some kind of therapy.

AutogeekOnline is about helping people reach their car care goal in a friendly environment.

So welcome aboard.

Since you took the time to reply, I will take the time to document my success with some photos. (I'm not planning on failure. Wink).

Everyone in the forum world likes pictures including me....

I have ordered the CarPro denim and velvet pads from a Canadian distributor and I am waiting on their arrival. I know you use Meguiars, however access to their products is lousy here in Canada so I use Poorboys compounds.

Real quick... and I know it's hard for anyone and everyone to read every post I've made on this forum by "I" remember them and multiple multiple times on this forum on the topic of

The best compound for use with CarPro Denim pads

I have stated that the jury is still out on which compound works the best with these pads and this technique for removing orange peel i.e. removing paint, specifically the paint on the top of the hills for the hills and valleys that make up orange peel.

In fact, at this point in time we live in a detailing world filled with very high tech compounds. Compounds that are NOTHING like the compounds of the old days.

It's also my theory or hunch that some of the more advanced compounds that are popular today may NOT be the best match for leveling orange peel with Denim pads but in fact, more of the old style of rocks in a bottle type compounds actually will be more effective for this first step.

I have not used a lot of Poorboys compounds and polishes, others can chime in on their experience but I do know there are still rocks in a bottle type compounds available and this is where someday someone will step up to the plate and do some testing and then share their results.

So give the Poorboys compounds a try, they may work very well. IF not try to find some compounds based on older technology.

My hunch is having larger abrasive particles sandwiched in-between the hard surface of a denim pad and the hard surface of the paint will work BETTER to knock off the tops of the hills as compared to many of the hi-tech compounds where the abrasives particles are microscopic in size and the compounds themselves feel like Jergens Skin Lotion and not a gritty compound.

Just a hunch...

My plan will be to

1. buff with the velvet pad (approx 3000 grit equivalent) SSR3 (M105 equivalent) at 6000 speed,
2. then buff with SSR2 on an orange pad at 5000 speed,
3. then polish win SSR1 on a white pad.
4. Buffer is a dual action porter cable.

I've tried the Velvet pads and one thing for sure... they are safe. So safe that any noticeable or effective cutting will come from the abrasives. Remember, CarPro intended these to be used with a rotary buffer so a more powerful tool would increase the cut of just about anything slapped onto a backing plate.

If I were you I would definitely test the Velvet pad first as I always tell my son,


"You don't know what you can do until you try"

And it could be the combination of this Velvet pad, the product, the tool and your technique will work on this paint system.

If that doesn't work then jump right over to the Denim pad and repeat and see if there's a visual difference that takes place faster.

As for the speeds you listed, I might spread my compound out using a the 4.0 setting on the Porter Cable but after that it's pedal to metal. Bump her up to the 6.0 and start making slow passes. Just don't lift the spinning pad off the paint of splatter will go everywhere.

I don't think the orange peel is bad enough to start with the demon pad (equiv to 2000 grit - depending on the compound I suppose).

I like the name Demon Pad better than Denim Pad. I'll give you credit for that one.

Paint hardness is always an unknow factor -Jason Rose



I always give Jason credit for that quote as it very accurate and I never steal other guys stuff but just the opposite, I always give due credit where credit is due. I don't see this in our industry but that's how I operate.

Here's what I think... you're going to find the Velvet pad is just to gentle and after some testing you're going to switch over to the Demon Pad.

But test first and let us know as this will benefit others into the future.

What compound do you suggest for the denim and velvet pads?

Regards
...Wes

I'd try the second most aggressive Poorboy's compound you have with the Denim pad and after making about 8 section passes wipe off the residue and inspect.

I'd also place a tape-line down so your eyes can more easily gauge changes.

If that's working and working fast enough for you, (that's two things), then duplicate this over the entire panel.

If it's not working or not working fast enough then jump down to the more or most aggressive compound you have and test in a new place and then inspect the results.


Looking forward to the progress for this project. I'd also like to see a full shot of the Willys!

[vuldub]

A bit more background.

After my first clearcoat, I had areas of transition (misted overspray) so I wet sanded 2000grit and buffed with DA, orange pad, SSR3 but I could not buff out some scratches which I'm pretty sure came from wet sanding (doh). So I resprayed and now I have some very fine textured orange peel. This is not a show vehicle, I am learning, so that's why I would consider machine sand and wool rotary buff, however, I am getting a bit tired of repainting - I have painted this panel twice and another test section 3 times (to get a correct paint match and overcome a bad supplier suggestion of using single stage paint first - that was a disaster - cannot buff single stage metallic, so it has to laydown perfect from the gun, not forgiving enough for my skill level). At this point I would like to be finished and put the hood back on.

Lastly, my hood is very flat and so are the fenders on my "flat fender" jeep, so it's ideal for buffing without vinyl tape.

On the advice of the Poorboys guys, I have tried one pass with the DA, orange pad, SSR3, speed 6000 to see how well the compound knocks down this peel and it didn't do much.

I will post some "before" photos shortly. Then get on to the velvet or denim pad.

[vuldub]

As for the speeds you listed, I might spread my compound out using a the 4.0 setting on the Porter Cable but after that it's pedal to metal. Bump her up to the 6.0 and start making slow passes. Just don't lift the spinning pad off the paint of splatter will go everywhere.

Shhh, there are somethings we need to learn by experience....

I like the name Demon Pad better than Denim Pad. I'll give you credit for that one.

Haha, It was a typo! but I like it too