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  1. #11
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    And again, mostly for everyone that will read this into the future...

    I've owned 6 classic British cars myself, all of them had the original paint. And in my experience, the paint was a tick on the poor quality side from the factory. Meaning nothing you pour out of a bottle of any brand works great because the "stuff" you're working on wasn't great to start with. And after 70 years go by... it doesn't normally get better. What's the opposite of the word "better"?


    Here's your picture,




    At least there's some rich color now...


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  2. #12
    Junior Member johnnyO's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Mike,

    I appreciate your enlightening me about the Comet cleaning and #7 glaze procedures. To clarify, I'm not looking to restore the finish on my car, but rather to preserve its well-driven character and appearance with additional depth of color and sheen. It's a pre-WWII design sports car intended for driving country roads and club competitions, not car shows. Fred Simeone of his namesake Museum of historic race cars (The Collection | Simeone Foundation Automotive Museum) is a huge proponent of stewardship, recognizing that a car is only original once. While my car does not have a LeMans pedigree, it is significant in that unrestored vintage MGs are becoming a rarity.

    You've been clear on your dislike of old British car paint and I understand your distancing yourself from the rainbow of reds evident on my car. In all fairness, the quality of the paint shoiuld be assessed on both aesthetics and ability to protect the metal (and wood, too). My car is virtually rust free, so while the finish is oxidized, the metal could not be more sound. Over the 3 decades of my ownership, it has spent extensive periods outside under a cover, not to mention lots of road time in all sorts of weather.

    Let me know if you'd like me to start a new thread to document my preservation progress in hopes that others may see hope for their vintage car's patina instead of opting for a new paint job.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    And again, mostly for everyone that will read this into the future...

    I've owned 6 classic British cars myself, all of them had the original paint. And in my experience, the paint was a tick on the poor quality side from the factory. Meaning nothing you pour out of a bottle of any brand works great because the "stuff" you're working on wasn't great to start with. And after 70 years go by... it doesn't normally get better. What's the opposite of the word "better"?


    Here's your picture,




    At least there's some rich color now...



  3. #13
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyO View Post

    You've been clear on your dislike of old British car paint and I understand your distancing yourself from the rainbow of reds evident on my car.
    Nothing personal about it - just my observations. And my observations are primarily for the color or pigment - red. My two Midgets, my two MGAs were red and had the same looking same reacting that I see with the paint on your car.

    The brown on my Spitfire also didn't polish good. The yellow on the other Spitfire did actually polish good, so it could be issues with primarily just red pigmented single stage paints.

    AND - out of all the different colored gelcoat boats I've detailed in my life, I would say red gelcoat has been the worst to oxidize, the hardest to bring back and the most difficult to preserve - so it could all be related to whatever is used to create red pigment. Lucky for me - I'm not a chemist so I don't have to figure it out, just make observations based upon real-world experience and then try to help others along the road of life.


    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyO View Post

    Let me know if you'd like me to start a new thread to document my preservation progress in hopes that others may see hope for their vintage car's patina instead of opting for a new paint job.

    No need for that... I think it's better to keep all this wonderful information in a single thread.


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  4. #14
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    And just to add....


    Over the weekend I did a major paint correction, compounded this paint HARD! Then polished and sealed and this yellow all original paint car came out really nice.






    So my theory is - when it comes to single stage paint, especially old single stage paint - pigment type is a important factor that affects everything about the paint.


    The BIG PICTURE is, like you stated, no matter how it may look or how long it looks good - if it prevents the underlying metal from rusting - then it's doing its number #1 job.


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  5. #15
    Junior Member johnnyO's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    When to apply LSP

    After going through the #7 and #20 steps, I tried some of the #16 paste wax and found that it did not leave a transparent finish. It appeared as if it was soaking in unevenly rather than staying on top. This is an issue I had in the past when I was using Griot's discontinued Paint Sealant (which BTW has similar work-ability to #7). So I tried testing 2 other liquid products I have on hand. Griot's BOS and Poly Waxes. The 1" test spots are shown below with the Poly on the bottom. The results are similar in that it leaves a cloudy appearance.





    Help me understand what's happening. Does the paint need more saturation of #7 or more layers of #20? I did try machine polishing the #20 on the slowest speed with a Griot's orange foam pad and firm pressure, but I have not tried any wax on top of that area I now feel confident in most areas of the car that it can handle a RO polish but not sure about increased speed or pressure.

    Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?


    Also, If I've already applied #20, will the paint still benefit from additional #7 or do I have to "strip" the sealant with a cleaner?


    And.... the MGB GT looks great.... my son has one restored with single stage urethane about 20 years ago. Is there any video of your work on the GT?

  6. #16
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Getting ready to go LIVE for our Thursday live detailing class.

    What you're seeing is why you do testing to spots before doing the entire car. With paint this old in this condition there's simply no other way to find out what will work and won't work.

    I'd stick with the #7/#20 routine.

    And yes - you can apply #7 over the 20 - it will remove a little of the #20 but will also get past the #20.


    You may have hit the wall or ceiling with this project.



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  7. #17
    Super Member 2black1s's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyO View Post

    ... Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?...

    Here's my recommendation for what it's worth...

    From my experience, compromised paint in the condition such as yours does not respond well to traditional methods. Especially traditional LSPs. The cloudy/hazy results you are seeing where you applied the LSP is often the norm.

    There is another thread going on right now about preserving the paint on a 68 Dodge Charger. In that thread I have described my method of dealing with such paints. What I have found to be the best solution in these cases is using an "oily" protectant as the LSP. It is simple to apply and can be repeated as often as you'd like to keep the protection level you desire. The "protectant" will also provide some gloss and bring as much life as possible into the color.

    I understand that my recommendation is outside the norm for paint protection, and I have never seen this recommendation anywhere else, but I have to tell you that for compromised paint such as yours, it works, and it's about the best you can do.

    As far as what kind of protectant to use... Think of something that you may have used on an interior and didn't like it because it left behind a greasy/oily film... That's what you want.

  8. #18
    Junior Member johnnyO's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Quote Originally Posted by 2black1s View Post
    Here's my recommendation for what it's worth...

    From my experience, compromised paint in the condition such as yours does not respond well to traditional methods. Especially traditional LSPs. The cloudy/hazy results you are seeing where you applied the LSP is often the norm.

    There is another thread going on right now about preserving the paint on a 68 Dodge Charger. In that thread I have described my method of dealing with such paints. What I have found to be the best solution in these cases is using an "oily" protectant as the LSP. It is simple to apply and can be repeated as often as you'd like to keep the protection level you desire. The "protectant" will also provide some gloss and bring as much life as possible into the color.

    I understand that my recommendation is outside the norm for paint protection, and I have never seen this recommendation anywhere else, but I have to tell you that for compromised paint such as yours, it works, and it's about the best you can do.

    As far as what kind of protectant to use... Think of something that you may have used on an interior and didn't like it because it left behind a greasy/oily film... That's what you want.
    Great suggestion. I was looking into using Fluid Film as an initial product for saving my paint before learning about #7. I do plan to use it on chassis areas that are basically weathered steel where the paint is long gone. I contacted the company about using it on car paint as compared to Gibbs Brand which is recommended by some in the hot rod realm. They replied:

    Yes it would be possible to add our product to the surface then rub it in like a wax so the product is in the pores of the surface but feels dry to the touch. We have a number of users who do this on chrome and other surfaces for the same reason.
    Gibbs is high in solvents and designed to penetrate quick and dry or gets gummy over time.


    So because Fluid Film is an oily lanolin wax product, I think it may perform better than ArmorAll or other silicone-type protectant. Or maybe not....

    I wonder what the effect of adding additional layers of product. Is it better if the top layer sits on top of, rather than penetrates the sub-layer???

  9. #19
    Junior Member johnnyO's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post

    You may have hit the wall or ceiling with this project.

    Does that mean my paint will not benefit appearance-wise by a layer of wax because it will likely result in a cloudy look regardless of beefing up the underlying layers?

    There's no question that stopping with the #20 layer gives an acceptable appearance... similar to what the Griot's Paint Sealant provided in the past, but now with the added protection of the AIO. I want to consider all options for tweaking the finish for enhanced depth or warm sheen associated with an antique car finish.

    While the modern PolyWax did not dry clear, I wonder if ceramic coating technology would work?


    Please address the following so I can proceed. What are your thoughts on an "oily protectant" top coat that will dry to the touch? (See 2 previous posts above.)


    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyO View Post

    Help me understand what's happening. Does the paint need more saturation of #7 or more layers of #20? I did try machine polishing the #20 on the slowest speed with a Griot's orange foam pad and firm pressure, but I have not tried any wax on top of that area I now feel confident in most areas of the car that it can handle a RO polish but not sure about increased speed or pressure.

    Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?
    Lastly, what washing product/method is best for my "fragile" paint? Can you provide me with a link?

    Thank you for your guidance!!

  10. #20
    Super Member 2black1s's Avatar
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    Re: Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyO View Post
    Great suggestion. I was looking into using Fluid Film as an initial product for saving my paint before learning about #7. I do plan to use it on chassis areas that are basically weathered steel where the paint is long gone. I contacted the company about using it on car paint as compared to Gibbs Brand which is recommended by some in the hot rod realm. They replied:

    Yes it would be possible to add our product to the surface then rub it in like a wax so the product is in the pores of the surface but feels dry to the touch. We have a number of users who do this on chrome and other surfaces for the same reason.
    Gibbs is high in solvents and designed to penetrate quick and dry or gets gummy over time.


    So because Fluid Film is an oily lanolin wax product, I think it may perform better than ArmorAll or other silicone-type protectant. Or maybe not....

    I wonder what the effect of adding additional layers of product. Is it better if the top layer sits on top of, rather than penetrates the sub-layer???
    I think anything you use is going to penetrate to some extent. It's the nature of the compromised (porous) paint film remaining.

    There are many products around today that were not available the last time I dealt with paint in your condition and some of those might provide good results. Even so, if I were in your shoes today my baseline would be the "protectant" method and I'd start experimenting from there.

    One traditional LSP I might try would be Meguiar's Ultimate Wax (liquid). It's a fairly oily composition and it never really dries to a haze. It doesn't stain trim and I think that is a plus for porous paint. It may not leave behind the haziness that you've experienced with the LSPs you have tried so far.

    I just recently read that Meguiar's has updated the Ultimate Wax formulation so I'm not sure if it still has the oily, non-hazing characteristics. I think those characteristics are a plus for paint in your condition.

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